@freemo well, I have time to think about it. No big rush. Figured I would start by asking people smarter than myself. :)

@freemo well as long as I am not doing Markov tables with weird ass matrix multiplication I should be alright..

@freemo but maybe I can use it to have a reasonable language to start generating the fact templates.

@freemo let me think about it that way...
See if I can come up with something.

@freemo well, sort of. But you still have clues that are still relative. For example


A is left of b, c
A is also left of e, f
A is also left of h, i

So Bob is left of Charlie, but another clue is Bob is left of The person who smokes Pall Malls. Or the person who has a Zebra, and so on...

These have multi-dimentional inferences in that way. I get that. But I have to start my thought process somewhere. So reducing it to 3x3 and ABC is a good starting point, from which to build up a theory. No?

@freemo Just thinking out loud. in a 3x3, a "left of" eliminates 1 position. 2 of them would infer that rightmost position as the one not referenced. Though there would be some other clue necessary to determine their specific location:

A is left of C
B is left of C

Infers C is rightmost. But doesn't solve AB vs BA

A is left of B
B is left of C

Infers C is rightmost
Infers A is leftmost
Infers B is in the middle

So 2 relative rules that commonly refer to a given element, infer that element, but not the relative ones. But 2 relative rules that do not share a common element will infer all 3 elements.

This is intuitive to me, but I don't know how to define that.. Or scale it.

@freemo but I was hoping rather than a solver, a mathematical proof.

Seems like a given rule either infers or eliminates relationships, and enough of such things would in theory present a solveable set. No?

@freemo well, I think there is something to generating all possible clues.

Within any given column there is a direct positive and or set of negative clues relative to every other elements in that same column.

And for any element in any column will have positive and negative relationships either "left of" "right of" "next to" or possibly "between" (which would be relative to two other column values.)

@freemo yeah, well I think the solvers for these things already exist. Here they are in just about any language one would care about:


@freemo The more I read, it seems that it involves writing a solver. So you create a puzzle then pull facts from the set of all possible facts until the solver can solve the problem. But that is kind of silly. Well, nthe puzzle is (r1, c1) through (rN, cN). Which is how I have it paramatized anyway. So in reality there is only 1 puzzle, and based on the matrix size a finite number of "facts"

@freemo Just wrote a program that presents such a problem. Due to time constraints we wrote it for 3x3 rather than 5x5 or whatever it normally is. But I wrote the clues manually, as I proved them out, and resolved the puzzle myself. I came up with 5 templated sets of rules and then we shuffle different entities and attributes through the puzzle. But I am considering expanding it to the full size puzzle at some point, and assume there should be some straight forward way to create all the "facts" relationships etc.. To come up with rule sets.

One explanation was to come up with all the possible "facts" (since they are definitely finite) then somehow determine that some number of them would be sufficient to solve it. Or something like that.

@freemo Other than manually, is there a mathematical way to calculate the "clues" for the "Einstein" or "5 houses" style puzzle?

@nergal @Ghosty one nice thing about Emacs, if you don't like the keyset or the stateless (modeled) editing, you can install Evil mode and voila everything you knew before works. I use them both. I just feel wrong doing Lisp in vim, and nothing ng can do syntactical indentation of Lisp like Emacs, because it understands it internally. Love them both.

@kat yeah I need to start "enjoying" more of that. But for now I am practicing sitting. I am getting really good at it!!

@kat looked familiar. I don't believe in running, that's a game for the young. At my age there is no place I am in that much of a hurry to get that I need to run. Especially if that place is the same place from which I am starting. :)

@tindall vim=good if you want discoverability then use emacs, right? But being that there is overhead to discovery, is that the benefit to lower discovery apps? Perhaps apps could be written to be higher discovery then reduced as you no longer need the discovery. Maybe as you use a feature enough times its entry gets removed from the help files/man pages?

@joseph zterm? :) I am no expert on networking, but from what I understand packets transfer at a larger size until they fail validation/verification, then progressively smaller packets are sent until they fail and so the process repeats. This speaks to the quality of your network traffic/flow etc. This is no answer, but maybe it helps to understand what is going on. Much like understanding the inner workings of the internal combustion engine make you feel better about being stuck on the side of the road.

@ssokolow @namark what about other things too? Have you tried to buy a Glock lately? To my large glove male glove sized hands it is akin to holding on to a brick. And if I complain to the salesperson, asking for something a little more comfortable to my hand, they start to show me the hazy pink "Lady Smith". :)

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