@Saederup92 Generally nationalist is used to mean something quite horrible. Something akin to fascist. I presume that is not the way you mean it however.

@freemo Lol nothing even close to a fascist. I mean people are more than welcome here as long as they actually wanna be a part of society and actually wanna contribute to society as well

@Saederup92 Depending on the nuance I see nothing wrong with that.

@freemo Me neither

@freemo @Saederup92 I sit quite gladly Center-Left. I like what I consider to be the common sense coming from that particular area in my local politics.

@Surasanji @freemo Tho I'll admit I might be a bit righ-leaning I don't agree with nor assosciate myself with the extremely racist shit bags on either side of the spectre

@Surasanji @freemo *right

@Surasanji If the left-right spectrum were a numberline with far left being -10 and the far right being +10 then I would fall exactly at the square root of -1.

@Saederup92

@freemo @Saederup92 I, too would like to think of myself as i.

@freemo @Surasanji That's fine too. As long as mutual respect can exist, I see nothing wrong with leaning in different directions

@Saederup92 I think both the right and the left make valid points. I also find that since neither the right nor the left address the valid points of the other side neither is capable of coming up with reasonable solutions that address all the concerns.

@Surasanji

@freemo @Surasanji Sadly both sides are sometimes way too busy making each other look bad to actually address anything important

@Saederup92 Very true

@Surasanji

@freemo @Saederup92 That is often why I sit fairly in the middle, albeit slightly to the left. I can hear both sides, and agree with points on each side.

But, for now, I have to live with a very conservative government who is ABSOLUTELY screwing the pooch. The far left would also be screwing said pooch. Poor pooch. :(

@Surasanji I can understand that. Though I personally feel the "lesser of two evils" mentality is the quickest way to ensure evil prevails.

@Saederup92

@freemo @Surasanji That's why it baffels me how the US only has two major political parties

@Saederup92 The USA is a model of example of my concerns and the reason i have developed the stance I have.

In the end the truth is I have dealt with many very traumatic life long patterns that directly result from the insanity of the left and the right.

Which is why i have a house in the netherlands now and minimize my contact with the USA.

@Surasanji

@freemo @Saederup92 I'm not suggesting the center is the lesser of two evils, at least not here in Israel. There are dozens of parties here, and there are some that are specifically in the center: Yesh Atid, for instance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesh_Atid

Those are the guys I vote for.

@Surasanji @freemo At least we have more parties to pick from here than Americans have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Denmark

@Surasanji I was just thinking more from the USA terms where "left of center" means "I vote democrat but i disagree with most of what they say". I realize now in your case it probably means something very different.

@Saederup92

@freemo @Saederup92 I can see that. We're both expats and left the US for very similar reasons. It's easy to fall into that frame of mind when speaking to someone you know is from the US. Happens to me all the time. :)

@Surasanji I have a bad habit of thinking anyone from the internet is american till I hear otherwise. Part of the reason I moved to mastodon is the lack of americans.

@Saederup92

@freemo @Surasanji I've never been to the US but I've been to a few other European countries

@Saederup92 Best to stay away. America is good for two things: 1) making money and financial oppertunity. 2) delicious food that will kill you.

@Surasanji

@freemo @Saederup92 Yeah, I hear that. Apart from Mastodon (And QOTO in particular) the vast majority of my internet interaction is with people from the US. I totally get it.

@Surasanji I often haf-joke on FB that they need to add an auto-block feature for americans :)

@Saederup92

@Surasanji @freemo As a little off topic I've been on this instance for around an hour and I think it's more civil than .social

@Saederup92 @freemo Yeah, that's one thing I love about #QOTO . The entire idea is to teach other people and to ask questions about things.

Abuse is out of the question, though. Always.

@Surasanji Absolutely. Plus i find the environment is so nurturing of that that any true abusers are exceedingly rare. I cant remember the last time we had to block anyone for outright abuse. Usually a talking to does the trick if someone is getting feisty.

@Saederup92

@Surasanji @freemo Poor pooch indeed. And Trump may not be the best president but he got elected after all. Plus who says the alternative would be a better option? 🤔

@celesteh There absolutely is a mainstream left in america. The difference is they just lack the sort of rational debate you'd get out of a leftist in most areas.

Keep in mind i am using the neo-left vs right scale not the classical left definition. If we use classical left as the definition then I would tend to agree with you. Problem is classic-left in america is wrongfully viewed as just a varient of right.

@celesteh Though to be fair most of the world rarely uses classic left to mean left either, everywhere uses some variation of neo-liberal usually specific to their own local definition of left and right. More often than not they use left to mean socialism in some form, rather than its classical definition which is in many ways contrary to this.

@freemo neo-liberals come from the chicago school of economics. They supported Pinochet. This is not left in any sense.

The parties in the US are organisations designed to advance the power of their elected members. They are not ideological. The US parties do have platforms and right now these are Tory vs Fascist. While one party is definitely to the left of the other, it's not even centre-right in historical terms. It's just right wing - even by the standards of the US over the last 50 years.  Some important nods to individual liberties confuse things slightly, but taking a wider historical view, it's kind of a Whig position, which is very much about protecting powers of the owning classes.

@celesteh I'm not talking parties, I think it is obvious to many that the democratic party often has candidates who are neither neo-liberal or classical liberal.

I am talking about people, and there is no shortage of the left in america, by that i mean "Supporting a government whose focus is taxation aimed at wealth distribution as well as a high reliance on government regulation" which tends to be descriptive of the left in most ountries including the US.

While in and of itself this isnt always a devestating decision in america it is applied with a toddler level of understanding that makes it nearly impossible to succeed. One day with more education perhaps the left and right in america might make sense, be regardless left and right does apply.

@freemo Your definition of 'neo-liberal' is so far off from how the term is used in most English-language discourse that I'm afraid we can't can't discuss further as we're talking at cross-purposes.

@celesteh Correct I am using the definition most of the world uses in general conversation, not a technical term (also the definition provided by wikipedia).

@freemo You're talking about the post war consensus. Neoliberalism is the system that came after that, as promoted by Thatcher and Reagan.

@celesteh I am refering to what is generally meant by "left" specifically the definition provided by wikipedia, to quote:

The term left-wing can also refer to "the radical, reforming, or **socialist** section of a political party or system".

@freemo .... if wikipedia says that reagan and thatcher were left wing, you may want to take that with a tiny grain of salt

@freemo Anyway, this has been fun, but I'd prefer to avoid arguments over the definitions of words, so I won't be replying further. Thanks very much.

@celesteh Good move, the definition was never really the important part of what was being said anyway. So I agree, mostly just a distraction.

@celesteh The specific definition isnt particularly important for the assertion I was making which really just boils down to which of the two groups a person identifies as being in. Which in turns dictates the sort of people they are around and the habits they pick up.

@freemo
It determines who they are around to some extent. I think by definition things like public /state education and media will be majority those who believe in centralized power (which I call Left), so those in favor of distributed power, or perhaps a federated approach, rather than centralized will always be at least exposed to and often surrounded by those on the left.

I unaffiliated with the parties after their election of the historically least popular candidates in 2016, which has changed my perspective; I think it's allowed me to be more fairly critical of "my side" which has allowed a lot of really informative and constructive interactions with those on other sides of issues.
@celesteh

@SecondJon I think "left" means a lot of different things to different people. For the purposes of this meme it mostly just means whatever you self describe as with the caveat that libertarians are not "lefy" or "righty" since they are classically liberal so not really self described as either group.