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I'm basing it off having joined 3 different Antifa groups in three difference states in the USA. I will admit Antifa outside of the USA isnt fascist however.
To be clear I am talking about Antifa (capital A) and not anti-fascists as a whole
As for if they are a group, thats sort of true. they operate more akin to how terrorist organizations act, they have a logo, outfits to identify eachother, and shared literature and ideology, but instead of acting as a single overarching organization they generally operate as independent cells.
Of the three groups I joined each one used violence as an intentional tactic and generally applied it indiscriminately.
Outside of the three Antifa cells/groups I quickly joined I have also witnessed other Antifa groups I was familiar with commit violence, once against an old man wearing a MAGA hat (was beating him bloody) and another old man at a Trump rally whom they were throwing explosives at. Both of these people appeared to also be operating as part of a group/cell with fellow members.
@freemo @stux 99.999% of antifa aren't in explicit groups. Any self-identified "antifa groups," especially ones that would let people easily join are trolls or idiot larpers and even the majority of those are just silly anarchist book clubs.
If you specifically seak out "violent antifa groups" you can find a few idiots to hang with but calling the representative of a vague, uncoordinated movement is like calling that 10 year old fox news "hackers on steroids" report representative of Anonymous.
Anyone who isnt in an Antifa group, doesnt adopt the logo, and doesnt adopt the tactics isnt Antifa, they are anti-fascists, they are very different things.
I didnt seek out violent Antifa groups. I sought out Antifa groups for peaceful protest, its just every single one of them happened to be violent.
This is hardly my opinion even the definition of Antifa specifically agrees with my description for the most part (again capital A):
Antifa (/ænˈtiːfə, ˈæntiˌfɑː/)[1] is a predominantly left-wing,[2][3][4][5] anti-fascist political activist movement in the United States[11][16] comprising a diverse array of autonomous groups that aim to achieve their objectives through the use of direct action rather than through policy reform.
The keys words there are "direct action" (meaning we if all your doing is being peaceful and protesting you arent Antifa), and that it is explicitly comprised of a collective of autonomous groups (basically the definition of cells).
The only thing Wikipedia doesnt explicitly mention is that the "direct action" criteria for Antifa usually boils down to violence.
I never said the definition was official. You just keep stating easily debunked facts.. the difference is your opinions are just your opinions. Wikipedia actually cites and backs up their claims fomr a large array of sources.
So clearly if you keep talking about "what everyone knows" and wikipedia is here directly contradicting you with a long list of sources, well that causes the weight of your argument to quickly shoot down to 0 because at the very least a great deal of people disagree with you.
funny it matches up exactly what I and everyone I know has expiernced... weird how that works huh?
I'd say the fact that I keep **quiting** violent Antifa groups the second I find out they are violent says more about me than Antifa. Says very little about antifascism though, thats a difference concept.
@freemo @stux yeah again, the fact those are the groups that are letting you in says a lot more about you than it says about anyone else. Assuming you act in any way similar to the way you act online, you'd be eliminated during the vetting process of any direct action group (and even several completely out in the open nonprofits) very quickly. I don't think I'm gonna convince you though, so thanks for your perspective, have a nice day.
Nah your just having a bit of a trantrum and when you cant argue you point you try to argue against character.. Which actually says more about **you** than me, but please go on..
As for them letting me in, I have yet to find any group that didnt let me in, those were literally the first three I asked.
So good job grasping at straws and all, but a little common sense quickly debunks that nonsense.
No I didnt say that at all, read what I said again, but this time slowly.
What I said is the moment you couldnt disagree with me using logic you starting attacking character out of desperation.
Once you crossed that line you showed you were triggered and having a tantrum rather than sharing a respectable debate about a difference of opinion.
Sorry but I've read the defunding plan in detail and its the worse plan I've ever heard, and it wont ever get passed anyway.
Sorry but as someone who has lived in many countries and traveled to many more I've seen first hand what police forces and the community look like both in well funded and not so well funded police. I've seen well funded police that do their job well, I've seen poorly funded police that made me scared for my life.
Defunding is a naive and ignorant plan that wont work and just makes things worse.
Would be to onumerous to list them all to be honest.
I've seen the official stuff put out by BLM, I've seen several writeups from BLM members and supporters adding their own take, I've read the history of Camden and their attempts and failures, etc.
You are the first person I ever met face to face who actually thought it would work mind you, most of what I read came from BLM leadership and supporters rather than from day to day people I meet, who all have been strongly against it as a plan
I think ive expressed it in the thread before..
1) Many places have defunded police and not solved the issue (such as camden).. in fact once you look at the data critically (not the bad analysis you would get from a news paper, but more rigerously) it was obvious to me that camden had no real benefit by defunding their own police department. The result was crime changed at about the same rate as the background rate, as did homicides by police.
2) People wouldnt go along with it, and it isnt likely to actually happen.
3)It doesnt solve the underlying problems, any such group, if given the same powers as a police force to arrest and use force, as would be required, would ultimately have all the same flaws as a police force.
The underlying problem is, very obviously, a lack of accountability in those who have the power to conduct arrests. If that accountability issue isnt addressed, the problem will never be solved. It comes from multiple aspects (all highlighted by my 9 points). Some of the solutions are the legal structure, others have to do with how police see each other.
So unless the solution focuses ont he problem, it wont be a solution. As I said we have examples where defunding was tried and it was a failure, or atleast failed to create significant enough results.
1) Doing new things is hard, but the USA is a young new country with horrible cruft
that is worth experimenting for improving. It works and fails as all things. We must also demand that ALL police funds and more are spent on community programs and social services
2) It has already begun, it's starting on a city level, which is perfect for this experimentation
3) "It doesn't solve the underlying problems, any such group, if given the same powers as a police force to arrest and use force, as would be required, would ultimately have all the same flaws as a police force."
This is where you're just wrong. Any organization that uses force needs to be just for that. They need to be community members instead of random outsiders, their use of force needs to be managed by elected members of the local community, etc. You almost never need "police" anyway: even to arrest people, most people will accept they're going to jail and that if they resist, the worker just leaves and sends a community member authorized to use force
This plan is being backed up by the same guys who destroyed a city and killed for no reason at all, doesn't sound any alarm?...
>Worked in Switzerland
Although as far as I know Switzerland isn't divided between murderous looters and normal people, how are you going to bridge the gap while at the same time supporting the murderous looters?
It's worrying that this doesn't alarm you dude
You cant refine a bad idea... Any solution that is "refined" by "experts" and actually works wont look anything like the defunding plans.
In fact most plans that will work might see certain aspects of police see less funding (like their weapons budget) overall any viable plan is likely to see increases in budget but in the right places (oversight, new laws, new agencies, body cams, pretty much the areas I listed in my 9 point plan).
I am not necceseraly objecting to splitting up the police into seperate agencies. In fact in a lot of the USA we do that already in some minor ways. The police arent the ones who invest their time into writing parking tickets for example.
But again what it all comes down to for me is
1) Other places have not shown consistent success in this approach in the cases I know of it has either made matters worse or at best marginally better (and often didnt have the problems we had in the first place).
2) It simply is naive to and does not address the underlying issues. Which is that the people who are given the power to arrest others cover up their own mistakes and ultimately coordinate with the DA who has a conflict of interest when it comes to persecuting them as well.
On the flip side the countries I've been to with the most excellent police forces are often highly funded. Which demonstrates to me that funding is not the red pill it is made out to be.
Who are you talking about. I'm not a white person, I'm a Native American and frankly I'm insulted you would assume you have any clue what my race is without asking, let alone to use that as fodder against me.
Check your privilage. That is the first time you have said something out of line, normally I find you passionate thought respectful.
In other words the privilege of living amongst your own and not looking dangerous
It always boils down to that, there's no such thing as privilege it's just close people being close and judging others by how they look
Are there terribly racist countries? Yeah but they are all left wing or simply not relevant to the lefty agenda
But to answer your question, the netherlands is an example of a very highly funded police department (in fact the Netherlands spends loads of money on all its government services, to the extream), I will have to look up the exact numbers though. In all my time there I dont recall actually hearing about anyone, minority or otherwise, being shot to death by a police officer. I'd be curious to see the last time it happened. I'd be shocked if it happened even once a year to be honest.
The minority death numbers of any place are always the lowest... What's your point?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/
Except it doesnt.. in some places it has shown marginal improvement, in others (like camden) it has been an utter failure. Regardless even if it is a marginal improvement some of the time, by and large it wont solve the problem. At best it will slightly mitigate it and at worse it will make things worse.
@freemo @stux out with red fascist in with blue fascist