@penny

Would be to onumerous to list them all to be honest.

I've seen the official stuff put out by BLM, I've seen several writeups from BLM members and supporters adding their own take, I've read the history of Camden and their attempts and failures, etc.

You are the first person I ever met face to face who actually thought it would work mind you, most of what I read came from BLM leadership and supporters rather than from day to day people I meet, who all have been strongly against it as a plan

@zleap @stux

@freemo @zleap @stux Okay so you have no actual examples and nothing is going to the house and therefore "not going to pass" doesn't make sense, since it's still a local issue.

@penny

No I can provide you wish some examples if you wnat. I must have read 30 - 50 articles ont he topic at this point.

You really want me to just start linking you to every article I can find that I remember reading? I mean I can do that, but to what end?

@zleap @stux

@penny

Honestly at that point you can just google search it yourself at that point.

@zleap @stux

@freemo @zleap @stux I want you to explain what you think will go wrong with moving money from police to community built organizations and social services; especially because this has been done many other times with demonstrably good results. Even whole countries like Switzerland have no gun toting general authority that deals with violent people AND civil issues

@penny

I think ive expressed it in the thread before..

1) Many places have defunded police and not solved the issue (such as camden).. in fact once you look at the data critically (not the bad analysis you would get from a news paper, but more rigerously) it was obvious to me that camden had no real benefit by defunding their own police department. The result was crime changed at about the same rate as the background rate, as did homicides by police.

2) People wouldnt go along with it, and it isnt likely to actually happen.

3)It doesnt solve the underlying problems, any such group, if given the same powers as a police force to arrest and use force, as would be required, would ultimately have all the same flaws as a police force.

The underlying problem is, very obviously, a lack of accountability in those who have the power to conduct arrests. If that accountability issue isnt addressed, the problem will never be solved. It comes from multiple aspects (all highlighted by my 9 points). Some of the solutions are the legal structure, others have to do with how police see each other.

So unless the solution focuses ont he problem, it wont be a solution. As I said we have examples where defunding was tried and it was a failure, or atleast failed to create significant enough results.

@zleap @stux

@freemo @zleap @stux

1) Doing new things is hard, but the USA is a young new country with horrible cruft
that is worth experimenting for improving. It works and fails as all things. We must also demand that ALL police funds and more are spent on community programs and social services


2) It has already begun, it's starting on a city level, which is perfect for this experimentation

3) "It doesn't solve the underlying problems, any such group, if given the same powers as a police force to arrest and use force, as would be required, would ultimately have all the same flaws as a police force."

This is where you're just wrong. Any organization that uses force needs to be just for that. They need to be community members instead of random outsiders, their use of force needs to be managed by elected members of the local community, etc. You almost never need "police" anyway: even to arrest people, most people will accept they're going to jail and that if they resist, the worker just leaves and sends a community member authorized to use force

@penny @freemo @stux @zleap
This plan is being backed up by the same guys who destroyed a city and killed for no reason at all, doesn't sound any alarm?...

>Worked in Switzerland

Although as far as I know Switzerland isn't divided between murderous looters and normal people, how are you going to bridge the gap while at the same time supporting the murderous looters?

It's worrying that this doesn't alarm you dude

@freemo @zleap @stux You could definitely do this by bringing in a plan and saying what you think is wrong with it; but all of these plans are prototypes, and will need to be refined by people who have knowledge of this. We may need to bring in experts from other countries.

@penny

You cant refine a bad idea... Any solution that is "refined" by "experts" and actually works wont look anything like the defunding plans.

In fact most plans that will work might see certain aspects of police see less funding (like their weapons budget) overall any viable plan is likely to see increases in budget but in the right places (oversight, new laws, new agencies, body cams, pretty much the areas I listed in my 9 point plan).

@zleap @stux

@penny

Just to be clear as I am investing my time and energy into listening to you. Have you actually read my 9 point plan or did you just dismiss it out of hand?

@zleap @stux

@freemo @zleap @stux I did, it's uh. A bunch of halfhearted liberal mesaures I would vote for while campaigning for future abolishment

@penny

Alright your welcome to your opinion. I am glad you read it. I obviously think your wrong, but you are entitled to your opinion.

@zleap @stux

@freemo @zleap @stux the critical thing here is that when defunded, you shoud still have all the pieces of the Police. I don't need the sam organization that writes the paperwork for my insurance claims and takes noise complaints shouldn't be the same people who need to put their hands on people. They are too large as an institution to understand or control, they constantly undermine any laws made to control them

@penny

I am not necceseraly objecting to splitting up the police into seperate agencies. In fact in a lot of the USA we do that already in some minor ways. The police arent the ones who invest their time into writing parking tickets for example.

But again what it all comes down to for me is

1) Other places have not shown consistent success in this approach in the cases I know of it has either made matters worse or at best marginally better (and often didnt have the problems we had in the first place).

2) It simply is naive to and does not address the underlying issues. Which is that the people who are given the power to arrest others cover up their own mistakes and ultimately coordinate with the DA who has a conflict of interest when it comes to persecuting them as well.

On the flip side the countries I've been to with the most excellent police forces are often highly funded. Which demonstrates to me that funding is not the red pill it is made out to be.

@zleap @stux

@freemo @zleap @stux The best to you, a white person, who was just there. Give me the minority death numbers

@penny

Who are you talking about. I'm not a white person, I'm a Native American and frankly I'm insulted you would assume you have any clue what my race is without asking, let alone to use that as fodder against me.

Check your privilage. That is the first time you have said something out of line, normally I find you passionate thought respectful.

@zleap @stux

@freemo @zleap @stux Oh fuck off with that, no joke I'm from around Beaumont texas and my uncle is a Karanakawa Chief. I still look white to most people and therefore do experience white privlege.

@penny

Oh well if your uncle has some Native American blood in him thats totally the same thing. Come on now.

@zleap @stux

@freemo @zleap @stux my mom and my dad, with my mom being half native half second generation Italian.

@penny

Ok thats more fair at least, and if you have some native american blood in you, even if it were a small portion I'd never be so rude as to insist you are white.

Keep in mind there is a huge difference between calling me white and saying "people may mistake you for being white and thus treat you as white" the latter I wouldnt find as offense, I only found it as offensive to explicitly call me white.

@zleap @stux

@freemo @zleap @stux oh fair point!

@freemo @zleap @stux I'm minority as fuck, and I rocognize despite a bunch of non-white features like my protruding nose bridge and big elephant ears thad don't fold in, I still come off as white

@penny @freemo @stux @zleap
In other words the privilege of living amongst your own and not looking dangerous

It always boils down to that, there's no such thing as privilege it's just close people being close and judging others by how they look


Are there terribly racist countries? Yeah but they are all left wing or simply not relevant to the lefty agenda

@zleap @stux @penny @freemo
if optimism is a core part of your plan you're fucked dude

what the state need is a leading head, a council will never go anywhere unless the members are leaders themselves (this isn't the case) and even then that often goes nowhere

there are contexts where the opposite is truth but I don't see this being the case

@Elfie

While i agree there is no shortage of racism from the left, there is also no shortage of legitimate racism from the right. The bigger difference i find, however, is the left is often quick to label anyone who criticizes their approach as a racist. Thankfully Penny doesnt appear to have any of these problems. She is good people.

@stux @penny @zleap

@freemo @stux @penny @zleap
it would be stupid to say the right isn't racist but it's difficult for me to believe that a right wing country is anywhere comparable to a left leaning country even on the extremes

Leaving aside ill conceived inmigration policies and situational extremes because they don't really represent what the average joe feels ​

@penny

But to answer your question, the netherlands is an example of a very highly funded police department (in fact the Netherlands spends loads of money on all its government services, to the extream), I will have to look up the exact numbers though. In all my time there I dont recall actually hearing about anyone, minority or otherwise, being shot to death by a police officer. I'd be curious to see the last time it happened. I'd be shocked if it happened even once a year to be honest.

@zleap @stux

@penny @freemo @stux @zleap
The minority death numbers of any place are always the lowest... What's your point?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

@freemo @zleap @stux You cannot say it's a bad idea when it DOES work all over the world, even for entire countries

@penny

Except it doesnt.. in some places it has shown marginal improvement, in others (like camden) it has been an utter failure. Regardless even if it is a marginal improvement some of the time, by and large it wont solve the problem. At best it will slightly mitigate it and at worse it will make things worse.

@zleap @stux