π³π±
A chart showing the signature count as a graph comparing the #rms open support letter vs the anti-stallman letter... yay the letter in support of stallman is not just winning, but it seems to be growing in support where the other letter has lost steam and stopped growing.
The link below includes the script used to generate the chart
bonifartius πΌπ
mens rights _are_ a thing as long as eg. men who chose to invest more time in their children than into their jobs are considered weak, as it means that it should be the womans job.
cancel culture is a problem, the anger of many gets unloaded on a single person, warranted or not. it's just lynch mobs with cyber. "down the memory hole with him!"
it doesn't even fix any problems, but silences symptoms of a fucked up society. the problems still exist, they only aren't visible anymore.
Wow, nothing could be further from the truth (replying to @pants ). Inclusiveness and diversity are one of my top priorities, yet I support him.. What you really mean is that I dont have the same priorities as you when it comes to inclusiveness.
I have spoken to a **lot** of people about RMS and your statement seems ignorantly disconnected with their sentiment. Not one of them mentioned anything about men's rights, and while cancel culture is sometimes mentioned it doesnt seem to be the primary motivating factor. In fact every single person I spoke to on other side seemed to care about the future of FSF more than anything else.
One anecdote on our server is an openly bisexual man on our server supported RMS and received very disgusting intolerant hate male of the strongest language possible for his stance, apparently this is a thing as many people supporting RMS has received the same, yet I have heard of no one against RMS being harassed in a similar manner. This right here exemplifies, I think, why people are supporting RMS, because the people who tend to be doing the hate and destroying the diversity are the very people who tried to cancel RMS in the first place.
More over, there simply isnt a good argument against him. Some of his comments that people dont like he has either changed his mind on later, or has been largely irrelevant tot he topic and certainly not hateful or prejudice even when it might be wrong or uninformed (which isnt that often).
In short, we have some very hateful disrespectful people trying to force other people to their will even when they are a minority voice and RMS is largely supported, their tactics have been unacceptable and empowering people who behave like petulant toddlers in discussing this very issue (re: the hate speech towards RMS supporters) is the very reason many of us oppose it, particularly when RMS has been the greatest driving force of FSF to begin with and the vast majority of signatures against him are from places like microsoft that have been toxic to FSF from the get go.
@freemo if you're talking about @lupyuen , maybe he can confirm, but I'm pretty sure he signed the letter to remove RMS and got attacked by Stallman's supporters...
And there are lots of good arguments against RMS if you give even a little credibility to the women he's behaved poorly towards.
This isn't about Microsoft, or proprietary software. It's about a man who abused his position of authority after being asked not to, then people trying to take that authority away.
@bonifartius
I was not refering to him, I dont know his sexual orientation, though he was on the back of my mind when I mentioned it and I did think he posted his letter in support of RMS not against.
As for the evidence against stallman, I give weight to evidence not hearsay, particularly people in positions of power. If your asking me that I should judge against him on gossip alone from individuals whom I have no personal connection to and no way to judge their credibility, then no I obviously wont do that.
Can you give an example of any evidence-backed instances where he abused authority, I am happy to listen and maybe change my mind.
In fact the more I think about it any evidence-backed claims of something he did or said that is questionable in nearly all cases were not hateful and more of a reflection of being on the autistic spectrum. In which case the move to use those things against him to get him kicked off the board seems like intolerance and prejudice towards aspies, which is a far greater crime than anything stallman has come close to doing.
@freemo Doc, with all respect FUCK THAT FUCK THAT FUCK THAT. As someone who is on the spectrum, FUCK THAT. Saying that shitty people are shitty people because they're ND is incredibly insulting.
Its only insulting if you wrongly assume he is a shitty person in the first place. As I said nothing he has done with any evidence to it that I am aware of suggests he is a shitty person or even a bad person. Literally all of it were things that were said in a non politically correct way (as is typical of aspies) and little more.
So yes, taking that and using it against him without actual evidence of him being a shitty person in a way beyond just socially insensitive is little more than an attack on someone for being an aspie.
Again feel free to share an evidence backed example of him actually being a bad person and I'll change my mind, but neither you or anyone else has done that with me yet.
LAWL pants literally blocked me for thinking RMS isnt a shitty person.. well that tells me a hell of a lot about him.
@freemo @bonifartius I would like to add that the word "Diversity", often coming together with two other words "Inclusion" "Equity" means something very different from how people think they are: Diversity is about the diversity of identies(e.g. black man, colored woman, transgender, the fat and the disabled), not about the diversity of opinions and thoughts, in the name of diversity the woke promotes conformity of ideology, namely critical social justice theory, so you have black critical theorists, transgender critical theorists, fat critical theorists who believe basically the same thing about power dynamics and hidden oppressive structure underlying pretty much all of our daily activities, or daily languages, yet are invisible to most people, they can only be spotted by someone with critical conscious, who is "woke". Inclusion in practice basically means speech codes and safety spaces, that you are only allowed to speak in a specific way, that is, the politically correct way, in order not to offend ethnic minorities, racial minorities, the disabled, etc, and offense is defined solely by the perceived feelings of the receiving end regardless what your intentions are. As a consequence you need to segregate different groups of people in to racial/ethnic/gender categories, they don't call it segregation but it is segregation. Equity means not the equality before the law, or equality of opportunities, but the equality of outcome, so if there are 13.4% black population in the US, it means organizations such as FSF must has 13.4% percentage of black people (in fact black critical theorist) in older of have them well represented. Diversity, Inclusion, Equity, the Trinity of the woke cult, along with the postmodernist obsession with power, the hostility towards science(they call it the Eurocentric white males tool for dominance), reason, enlightenment valves, liberalism, characterizes pretty much all of the woke ideology. It is the same cult that attempts (often by means of coercion and intimidation) to infiltrate every single organizations of the world, and has been successful in doing so in the media, the Democratic Party in the US and the the Labour Party in the UK , ACLU, well knowned academic institutions like the Harvard, Oxford, Princeton. Now it's trying to infiltrate the free software movement through the same tactics.
It is suggested to watch James Lindsay elaboration on this matter: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3jLNgLABuTw
And the documentary of Evergreen, about how the Trinity of woke works in practice.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Wny9TstEM
@bonifartius I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your men's rights argument... Do you mean we should abolish gender roles so that men can more easily be stay-at-home dads? I totally agree, but as far as I understand, that's not what the "men's rights" movement is advocating.
As for the "cancel culture," are you arguing that the complaints against Stallman are unwarranted? If they are warranted what would be a better response?
Of course the men's right movement is advocating men have the freedom to be in a stay-at-home role, and many other things. It is advocating that all the ways in which a man doesnt have the same rights as a women, they should have it.
Personally I am not a supporter of feminism or men's right. I am a supporter of sexual equality and dont feel prioritizing any sex in that pursuit is healthy. But I do recognize that feminists and MRA are both working towards good goals, even if they are fairly blind to their other halfs concerns.
@pants yes, that is what i mean. there sure are different mens rights groups with different opinions, but thats the case everywhere.
i have only read either anecdotes about stallman or misreadings of his statements, i'd even say "intentional word twisting" but i can't prove that intention.
the answer isn't canceling a single person. there isn't any discussion. the cancellers are right beyond any doubt, at least in their minds. alas, no one is ever completely right.
@bonifartius and, to further iterate what imho a better response looks like: just do your own foundation. nobody forces anyone into the fsf. if you think you can do it better, do so. just because you dislike how someone behaves, doesn't mean you can rip his lifes work from him.
@freemo This is **total count**, right? Interesting. Do we have an explanation for the momentary spikes, in either direction? Is it a network outage and the crawler failed, or is it via Git history getting rebased/altered/whatever?
@szalayricha Yes total and all I know is at that link, so not sure what is up with the spikes.
@freemo This also might explain the change in acceleration.
@szalayricha might explain the change in acceleration yes, but still happy the support letter is winning :)
@freemo Part of the reasons why a small group people of authoritarian instincts were able to cancel and therefore terrorize the many is that the former group of people are well organized and highly conformist, while the later group of people often atomized, devilded. To claim back our territory, we too should form united alliances of communities and organizations.
@freemo That makes sense. The folks signing the letter against Stallman care about the open source community and it's commitment to inclusiveness and diversity. The folks signing the letter in support of Stallman are more concerned with "men's rights" or fighting "cancel culture." It would take them longer to hear about it, since they're not a part of the community, but surprise, surprise, there are more insecure men on the internet than free software advocates. π