Hot take: The absolute scientism of the left (lacking all nuance on scientific issues) is just as harmful as the anti-science rhetorc of the right... science is nuanced, remove the nuance and all you have is dogma.
@obi Hey look its great to be open-minded but at the same time dont be so open-minded your brains fall out.
@freemo Or someone will help them out lol
@obi @freemo
(I've been mulling it over, and I honestly can't think of anyone who has a cult following that thinks he "IS science", who has said some modified version of "don't question the science", and who is in some sense on the left. Will you reveal the name just to satisfy my curiosity? I promise not to be mean as a result. 😁)
@ceoln That's the only cult you see, because of the cult you are probably in (no offense, really, just from my experience but I could be wrong). One cult idolizes him as a science god, another, like you said, is obsessed with having him jailed. I accept no arguments from the position of authority, just stating that "experts" are correct, because they are experts. As I've said a million times, to me the best ethos is an arguments logos. @freemo
@obi @freemo
I can easily show you people who are obsessed with having him jailed (in fact the video that you linked shows such a person). Can you point me at someone who thinks he's a science god?
I think this bothsidesism on this is generally pretty inaccurate. People that I read on the left generally think he was both better and worse than he could have been (and at least didn't cave entirely to Trump).
'I accept no arguments from the position of authority, just stating that "experts" are correct, because they are experts.'
well, yeah, obviously; me too.
@ceoln I've only read the first part of your statement "I can easily show you people obsessed with having him jailed" and stopped. In my last reply I agreed with that statement, so I am not going to read the rest. I don't argue with cultists (on either side), it's pointless, which is why I originally said I didn't want to name names, and you said "just tell me blah blah blah curiosity blah blah blah", which I took at your word, but I learned my lesson. Let's just say you're correct and I'm wrong, so I can skip the pointless back and forth of obvious statements. It's boring, predictable, and uninteresting.@freemo
@obi @freemo
Why would you stop reading at that point? I was just reiterating something that we both agreed on, to set up a parallel construct for the rest of the sentence.
You seem to be saying that I'm a cultist because I'm asking you for examples of the phenomena that you claim are occurring. If you are hearing that as "blah blah blah", I can only wonder what causes that.
"Let's just say you're correct and I'm wrong"
Okay. :)
@obi @freemo
He says "follow the science", not "don't question the science", there. Those are obviously very different. And in fact he gives examples of how the best scientific understanding changes as we find out more, which is the opposite of "don't question the science".
And when he says that they aren't just attacking him, they're attacking science, he doesn't mean that he IS science, he means (correctly) exactly what he says: it's not just that they are attacking him, they are (just as the propagandists intend) attacking science and objective truth in general.
The left and right aren't just two sides of the same coin here, I'm afraid lol.
I wouldnt go that far (unless we are questioning things just to learn where our gaps are)...
Ther eis a happy middle ground where well established scientific facts are kinda absurd to question wholly (the earth is flat, there is no human cuased global warming, etc)... but then there are plenty of things worth questioning, the lefts treatment of many COVID topics for example, which is clearly a topic too new for there to be much of any settled issues. I mean yea if you say COVID doesnt exist your an idiot, but if you question if we need to wear masks for decades on end and if it will fix the problem, thats probably an ok question to ask.
@threalist Its not the qwuestioning thats the issue, its the level of stupidity and absudity that "questioning" often takes.. much as the left being equally absurd in the opposite way (refusing to recognize the nuance of some topics).
@threalist I agree the media amplifies this shit, but its hardly the only source... I have seen countless examples of the right exemplifying how they are represented int he media... hell I saw my own uncle (someone who used to be very science minded) turning into a raving lunatic.
@threalist no it isnt his lack of explanation, it is the absolute absurdity of his arguments. Usually complete fabricated and uneducated by generally in line with some aprty line (like thinking global warming doesnt exist or other ludacris shit like Obama's birth certificate stuff)
@freemo dogma is worse than no dogma, true. But not all dogma is equal, some are legitimately worse than others. If an individual doesn't have the time or inclination for serious inquiry, I'd prefer them to be dogmatic about supporting a self-correcting process for uncovering truth than any specific text (2000 years old or newer)
@freemo
Nah.
@freemo lack if wisdom (young person syndrome) style logical fallacy 👌🏻
@freemo
Can you expand on that a bit? I'm taking it to mean that many on the left have a somewhat blind belief that all the products of science are benign. Or perhaps that if somebody supports their argument with data, that you must automatically agree with them.
An example would be wearing masks. The data support that masking greatly reduces the transmission of a lot of diseases, including COVID-19. That said, there are still a number of choices to be made at the level of a society and the individual. Might I be okay with risking some restaurant visits unmasked even during a peak of transmission? How do we balance keeping the economy going with the costs of various measures of fighting a pandemic?
A lot of it comes down to what value you attach to human lives at the policy level, I think. I don't think it is wise to simply throw up your hands and say that every human life is priceless and any risk is intolerable. I also don't think that we should take a Darwinian approach to things and let the death tolls mount beyond a certain level to support "freedom."
I don't think an absolute answer really covers all situations. That nuance that you mentioned is very important.
@IAmErik It came from a thread/conversation earlier that day.. To summarize I basically said "Yes masks do reduce the spread of the disease, but dont ever expect them to eliminate it, COVID is likely here to stay"... they were very beligerant because I dared to suggest masks might not be perfect.... basically it was a generally science informed stance (masks do have an effect) but it lacked nuance (rejected the idea that masks arent so effective as to be a cure)
@freemo "Don't question the science". That's the f&cking point of science, to question everything in pursuit of the truth. The left often weaponizes science, the the Church did so long ago. If people didn't question the science, we would still believe that we are the frickin' center of the universe.