🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@qoto.org

@stevenroose

I found everyone in this conversation behaved maturely. I have a great deal of respect for both of you for doing so, thank you.

@FreePietje

@stevenroose

Fair, it seemed rare enough here on mastodon. Mostly a facebook thing for a while there.

@FreePietje

@FreePietje

My argument has nothing to do with IQ or even intelligence in the technical sense of the word. I dont think nor want, everyone to have an IQ of 120+ either. What i do want is people to be educated and have critical thinking skills. something ive seen plenty of people with low IQ learn if they bothered to formally study logic.

@stevenroose

@FreePietje

As a Native american myself I followed that iinstance rather closely including the court battles. It seemed clear to me it was not land owned by the native americans and the claim to it being sacred land was also reviewed and discredited. But with that said, any arguments of it being their land, if that case could be made with some evidence, would be a valid one to me in isolation. That would be true though regardless of if it were a pipeline or not.

But from an eco standpoint the fact is that millions of trucks mving every day to transport oil, will do FAR more damage to polluting their river (and source of life than the pipeline. So even if the purpose is to preserve the health of the rivers then they fail at that purpose by blocking the pipeline, which would be a positive improvement in terms of. eco impact on that and all other rivers.

But i agree with the idea that oil spills happen, and they may pollute that or other rivers. totally legit. My point is the solution to that is not requiring oil companies to transport oil via means that pollute more than pipelines, that doesnt solve your concern of oil spills (in fact it makes them worse). The only way you stop it is to reduce the consumption of the oil. That means you have to point the finger at the people not the companies, something the left seems incapable of doing (meanwhile the right refuse to acknowledge a problem exists at all).

@stevenroose

@FreePietje

By the way the dumping of toxic waste into the river, the visceral reaction it gave you is exactly the reaction i had when i first heard about Greta.

You have to keep in mind a HUGE part of my life was fighting for advocacy to better education and access to education. I have felt for decades now it would lead to a reality that looks a hell of a lot like the one we are now in.

So to me it isnt an exaggeration or meant to be an offensive analogy. It is simply exactly what it sounds like when I hear Greta talk and it is an offensive stance to me.

Regardless i do appreciate you sharing the fact that those points were offensive to you. Again im sorry, I was trying to attack the ideas, not the people. If i didnt succeed at that I will try harder next time.

@stevenroose

@FreePietje

I'm very sorry. I didnt mean to make it sound like i was belittling you. I did belittle the argument as absurd, but that was before i knew that you yourself believe int he argument.

I try very hard to attack ideas, not people, so if you felt attacked I'm sorry that wasnt the intention.

For the record I think you handled yourself maturely, intelligently, and did your best to review the facts as they were presented. I would have no valid reason to belittle you.

@stevenroose

@FreePietje

Well seems we mostly left off in agreement anyway. If we disagreed on anything it seems to be more the nuance than the overarching points.

So yea, not really sure there was much left to discuss anyway.

But if you feel you have anything more to add feel free later.

Thanks for all your input.

@stevenroose

@stevenroose

Well yea pipelines make prices go down because it means you dont need to waste half a barrel of oil in order to ship the other half. So you get more oil when you buy it since less of the oil was wasted.. sure. That isnt a bad thing. To take the stance of raising oil prices through a tactic that that wastes oil to do it is ultimately lunacy.

By that logic we should pass a law where everyone needs to buy a hummer or other fuel **inefficient** car. This ensures gas prices stay high so people wont buy it... Even if people buy less oil as a result it, as a policy, is lunacy.

@FreePietje