@Pat @bonifartius

“I don’t think I have [watched ≥10 Hollywood films released in 2020]. […] Did they even produce 10 films during the pandemic?”

Coming from someone who “watches a lot of films”, I’m surprised by the question. Of course they did, both produce and release: 2019, 2020, 2021 YTD.

“At this particular instant films may not be following the trend. However, if you picked 25 random films released during this century (20xx), I could find bias in 20 of them.”

One could almost say you’re trying to duck out 😉 But OK, let’s adapt the challenge: here goes your (reasonably random) selection of 10 Hollywood films of the 2010s (see image; methodology on a separate response).

How exactly are ≥8 of them “racist”?

“I’m not sure I understand what [conceding that, in principle, nobody above twenty should need trigger warnings, etc] has to do with Prof. Sheng needing to contextualize his film that had blackface in it.”

It was a theoretical attempt of mine to compromise to move the conversation forward. I just wondered if we could agree to keep being that protective with young people (not that I like it) and in exchange agree to drop all that hypersensitive nonsense for adults.

Like, let’s concede Sheng should have warned students in advance. All right. Can we at least forget about trigger warnings, taboo words, and images or words counting as “violence” when dealing with people aged 21+?

“In the US [the majority of the population today discriminates against blacks more than they unconsciously discriminate against other subsets of people]. Very much so. Prime example is in the selection of mates. Black/white interracial marriages are rare in the US.”

Of course they are. Not surprising at all. Stats say ~1/8 of US adult population is black. Let’s make the most generous assumptions: everyone’s married, and all blacks are married to whites (ie, all blacks and whites are racist in that they always prefer a mate of the other race). In this (very favourable) scenario, still only ~1/4 of all marriages in the US would be black+white. And again, this is a very distorted model.

But much more is wrong about using interracial marriage as a measure here:

“Think of all the RomComs out there. How many depict black/white leads? A random pairing of couples would yield many, many more. Even a random sampling of couples in the US would yield more.”

Marriage is not a random pairing of two adults, by any stretch of the imagination. If there’s nothing wrong with Americans of German descent being more likely to marry other German-Americans, or heavy metal fans marrying disproportionately other heavy metal fans, how is it surprising or problematic across any other demographical divide one could think of?

Even if actual interracial marriage doesn’t match mathematical probability, how do you know that is not caused also by blacks not wanting to marry whites?

“So, yes, a majority of the population in the US does discriminate and segregate into black churches and white churches, white neighborhoods and black neighborhoods, etc, etc, etc. But Hollywood films are even much worse than the general population when comes to bias. They perpetuate it.”

How is whites going to church with mostly other whites any different than Italian Americans going to church with mostly other Italian Americans, or fifty-somethings going to live music events with mostly other fifty-somethings, or PhDs inviting to their BBQ mostly to other highly educated people, or Korean Americans living mostly close to other Korean Americans, or…?

That’s the hyper-sensitivity I was alluding to. #Race triggers emotions and conclusions that aren’t justified rationally, and that takes us to very strange and divisive places.

/cc @freemo

@Pat @bonifartius @freemo

10 random films of the 2010s: I found this raking of 100 popular films of the decade (surely biased, but apparently it got lots of votes, and 100 is a large enough sample to smooth out some noise), sorted it alphabetically (ie, quite randomly), and then picket the 10 right at the middle of the list (ie from no. 46 to no. 55).

@tripu @bonifartius @freemo

10 films during the pandemic?

My question was rhetorical and somewhat hyperbolic. I just meant that production and release schedules got disrupted, making the time period atypical.

Also, I watch films from all time periods – silent era to recent releases – which gives me a good feel for trends over time, but that’s quite different compared to say, a young person watching all the latest popular superhero flicks, etc. And as I said, I wait until they get to the free video catalogs. My new-release viewing somewhat leans toward low-budget, direct-to-video films right now because of that.

“But OK, let’s adapt the challenge: here goes your (reasonably random) selection of 10 Hollywood films of the 2010s (see image; methodology on a separate response).”

Yeah, that’s a reasonably random list for a quick sampling. I’ve only seen a few of those (see above re breadth of my viewing). I’d love to conduct an actual research study of this sort, with proper controls and methodology. There are all kinds considerations when doing a study of this sort; how many impressions of each film were there? (weighted by audience size); is the sampling really random?, what would be measured?; what is the criterion or threshold for bias?; are some instances of bias more severe than others? (and therefore have more weight in measurement), etc…

If I could get funding for a study, I’d do it, really. I’d devote the time to it. There’s very little rigorous, quantitative research of this sort out there. It would take quite a lot of time and resources just to design the study, let alone carry it out.

Of course for a truly valid research project like that, I couldn’t actually do the evaluation of the films myself because I’m biased. I’d need to train unbiased viewers, maybe use scanning AI for the simple stuff, etc.

Which leads to your next question:

“How exactly are ≥8 of them “racist”?”

“Racist” is a charged word. “Biased” is probably more objective. If, just for quick sampling purposes, we looked at some of the films you listed to get a feel for what I’m talking about when say they contain bias, what would the criteria be? After I presented my evidence, the response could be, “I don’t think that’s bias”, then we’re back where we started.

I mentioned a few things that I’ve noticed that are biased earlier in this thread and in that related thread about the film “Exodus:Gods and Kings” (https://qoto.org/@Pat/107111545496373988), and there are many, many others. In your opinion, what would you say is biased? Do the things I mentioned constitute bias in your opinion?

“Rarely is a black person cast for a leading character who is, for example a Wall Street banker or in a position of authority or dominance over a character played by a white person. If a black actor plays a boss, it typically is a “mean boss” or one who is in opposition to the protagonist.

“Or black people are rappers, janitors, criminals, slaves, soldiers, boxers, cops, etc. Or they are killed off early in the film. Even black extras are slighted in films, often placed towards the edge of the frame or blurred out or a white extra walks in front them.”

“Black people, if they are included at all in films, are typically portrayed as characters who have menial jobs, carry things for white people, use substandard grammar, are depicted as being mean to the protagonist, etc., etc., etc…”

What about a film that excludes black people entirely? Is that bias? What about films that limit black people only to bit parts, or supporting roles? What about screen time or prominence? Is a quantitative measure of screen time and closeups/distant shots an effective measure of bias? Number of lines? What about more qualitative measures, such as (above) how black characters relate to the protagonists, or how often a black character delivers bad news? What about temporal or spacial juxtaposition of black characters to negative or stereotypical content?

It’s complicated.

@Pat

If we are talking about films that entierly lack minority characters from leading or even accompanying roles there is LOTR and harry potter movies. Both are two of my favorites but despite having half a dozen or more in each franchise there wasnt a single minority short of background characters.

These are probably two of the biggest film franchises in the modern era I can think of too.

@tripu @bonifartius

@freemo @tripu @bonifartius

This kind of bias often goes unnoticed. I’m surprised you caught that. Another thing filmmakers do is to kill off the minority character early in the film, like with “Gravity”. Many low-budget horrors films do that, too – the killer wacks the black guy first so he has less screen time.

@Pat
I didnt notice it. In fact at first i pulled up the cast list of these films hoping to see a black character who was treated well in the script. Only when i realized there wasnt a single black character to even consider did it dawn on me that neither of these films had any minority characters playing meaningful roles of any kind and was kinda shocked i didnt notice it.
@tripu @bonifartius

@Pat

“I’d love to conduct an actual research study of this sort, with proper controls and methodology. […] If I could get funding for a study, I’d do it, really.”

OK, we’ll have to shelve our little experiment, then. I’d love to see such a study, too. (Honestly, I would be surprised if it’s not been done already; but I don’t have the time to research that…)

“‘Racist’ is a charged word. ‘Biased’ is probably more objective.”

Exactly. That’s a good point. Now we’re converging, I think.

One of my issues is that in your toots you seemed too quick to see racism where there might be other kinds of benign, or innocuous, bias. There are lots of ways in which lots of things can be “biased”, but only some of those biases are motivated by racial hatred. Causes and motivations matter a lot.

“After I presented my evidence, the response could be, ‘I don’t think that’s bias’, then we’re back where we started.”

I don’t care about biases per se in art (I do care very much about biases in public policy and in science, though.)

So my response to you would almost never be “I don’t think that’s bias”, but perhaps “how exactly is that bias caused by racism, and not by a number of other explanations?”, or “if you think that biased representation is caused by racial animosity, how do you explain this other bias in the same piece of art or by the same artist/company, which goes in the opposite direction? wouldn’t that be a denunciation of racism? shouldn’t they ‘cancel’ each other?”.

“Do the things I mentioned constitute bias in your opinion? […] Rarely is a black person cast for a leading character who is, for example a Wall Street banker…”

Tell me first: what is the percentage of blacks among Wall Street bankers? And most likely there aren’t enough Hollywood films with a Wall Street banker protagonist to constitute a large enough sample. But if there are, and we find that, say, out of 25 recent such films, only in one the guy is black, and in another one he’s of Asian descent… so what? What is the minimum number of cinematic black Wall Street bankers to tick the box? And how could we answer that question without taking into account the real world (of Wall Street banking, in this case)?

I’m not being frivolous. How many Hollywood “hackers” are older than 35? My hunch is: very few. Is that ageism? Or rather a reflection of the real world (of computer geniuses)? Perhaps the real world is ageist, insofar as it admires and comments on very young hacker disproportionately over their older peers. But an artist who decides to more or less reflect an uneven reality is not necessarily endorsing nor promoting that unevenness.

In how many 21st-century Hollywood films the serial killer is not white? I can’t think of one right now. Is that anti-white hatred? Just a coincidence? Is it an accurate reflection of the demographics of psychopathy and violent behaviour in the US? Imagine a scriptwriter working right now on a thriller about a hideous black serial killer who is chased and killed by a white investigator: is it conceivable that that scriptwriter is feeling a certain unease about presenting their work to the world in 2021?

What percentage of film villains are female? Not the “cute” kind (Cruella de Vil) or the “cool” kind (a Bond villain), but the truly vicious type (Hannibal Lecter, Max Cady, Anton Chigurh)? Is it 50%, thus reflecting the distribution of male/female population? If not: does it match the percentage of female murderers? If not: is that a bad thing?

(I’ll continue answering your toot on a separate response…)

/cc @bonifartius @freemo

@tripu @bonifartius @freemo

“OK, we’ll have to shelve our little experiment…”

Even though it’s not a scientific research project, I think looking at those films in the list you provided could be enlightening. I started another thread specifically to comment on the films: https://qoto.org/@Pat/107140410303609143

“I don’t care about biases per se in art… “

If you care about racial injustice, you need to care about racial bias in media. Film and TV are main drivers that perpetuate racial bias against black people in society.

Regarding your other comments. Yes there are all kinds of biases in film (that Moneyball film also treated woman very poorly), but we’re talking about the treatment of black people in film – blackface in older films and much more subliminal racial bias against black people in more contemporary films. And regarding bias against white people, I have just one question: Would you rather be a black person in the US or a white person? There’s your answer.

@Pat

“Looking at those #films in the list you provided could be enlightening. I started another thread specifically to comment on the films.”

I saw that. It’s great, thanks! (I only saw two or perhaps three of them, so I can’t comment on those ten specifically.)

“If you care about racial injustice, you need to care about racial bias in media.”

I care about injustice. There are injustices much, much bigger than the black/white gap in the US and that are treated very seldom or never at all in popular contemporary art. If we were to take the statistical critique of film to its final consequences, the vast majority of films we watch should portray the struggles of poor (or extremely poor) people from Nigeria or Bangladesh, or the miseries of being a woman or a homosexual in a theocracy, the terror of so many living under autarchies, millions of miserable deaths that go unnoticed, etc.

Do you care only about the US when criticising films made in Hollywood? I think that’s not rational, but OK, let’s see: in the US alone there is ageism and aspectism, too. Those forms of discrimination are pervasive (in film, too) and impact the lives of more people than blacks citizens live in the US. There is political correctness and social conformity. Too much ignorance and too little love for books and reason, an epidemic of obesity and diabetes, very poor nutrition, too many opioids, an oversized military, narcissism and invasion of privacy fuelled by tech giants…

Do you want me to give you biases in film, presumably with negative consequences in real life, that are much, much common than anti-black propaganda? In film, everybody is way more attractive than in real life; slimmer, younger, taller. Shouldn’t we denounce that to prevent body issues, depression, anxiety, and suicide — especially among teenagers? In film, all houses are larger, brighter, prettier, better equipped. (I’d say larger rooms and sets make shooting much easier for the crew, but) isn’t that distorting our own expectations? In film, there are way too many heroes, leaders, champions, and winners (isn’t the vast majority of people neither of those?) In film, people speak very clearly, think very fast and act decisively; sex is glamorous (that distorts our expectations), fights are cool (ditto), nobody ever goes to the loo or cuts their finger with a piece of paper or spends one hour on the phone with the insurance company or leads an unremarkable life or needs assistance to walk up the stairs. Looking at real life stats, there are too few plumbers, street sweepers, pickpockets, truck drivers and ice-cream factory workers in movies. Too many athletic blokes and extremely feminine girls compared with real life. Way too many Americans, guns, mysteries, terrorists, protestant congregations, apple pies and school baseball games to reflect what the real world looks like.

How on Earth is film, or any other art, supposed to be realistic, balanced, representative?

We seem obsessed with racism affecting blacks, gay rights and trans issues. We see those biases and transgressions everywhere. A few comfortable topics monopolise the discussion. People complain about racist bias in a film in which the countries of the world, all speaking English and in harmony, end up defeating the alien invasion with an atomic laser under the leadership of a sex-symbol and the help of the caricature of a scientist, plus the sex-symbol happens to find true love in the process. A film in which nothing even tries to map real life. Yet the lack of black characters with enough lines is undoubtedly racist, and outrage. I find that perplexing.

“Film and TV are main drivers that perpetuate racial bias against black people in society.”

As I said, I think art does three things with the status quo: reflect it, reinforce it, subvert it.

I am not saying that there aren’t racist (and xenophobic, sexist, aspectist…) films, songs, books… But I also see a great deal of art with a very progressive agenda; more and more every day — that’s my impression. That’s why I’m sceptical of your “pessimistic” view. You can’t diagnose Hollywood by looking at its worse output only.

“Regarding bias against white people, I have just one question: Would you rather be a black person in the US or a white person? There’s your answer.”

How is that relevant? Don’t tell me you are one of those people who think bias and discrimination only exist (or only count) when the recipients of prejudice are, on average, worse off than the “offenders”…

Let me use your same argument: in the US today, you would rather be a Jew, a Mormon, a Chinese, a Cuban exile, a Nigerian, an Indian, a Lebanese-American or an Iranian — rather than a WASP. Because all those groups, on average, clearly outperform white Christians Anglo-Saxons — in educational attainment, social status and earnings. Does that mean that bias, prejudice, racism/xenophobia, discrimination against those groups is not such, or that it “does not count”? Of course it is, and of course it counts! Why would prejudice against whites, or men, or Christians, be any different?

/cc @bonifartius @freemo

@Pat

(Answering the rest of your message from a few days ago; sorry, I’ve been busy :)

“…or in a position of authority or dominance over a character played by a white person. If a black actor plays a boss, it typically is a ‘mean boss’ or one who is in opposition to the protagonist.”

I don’t know about this. I have no idea what’s the ratio “mean black boss of a white character” vs “nice black boss of a white character” in Hollywood films. I’m surprised that you think you have a large enough sample to measure that, that you have an estimation for that ratio, and that you feel the ratio is unjust or indicative of racism (!). I haven’t watched that many films for sure (nor do I keep so many tallies in my head about so many possible combinations of race, role, screen time, lines spoken, etc).

I really want to see studies about all this. Otherwise the debate is hunches vs intuitions.

“Or black people are rappers, janitors, criminals, slaves, soldiers, boxers, cops, etc.”

Seriously: is it any wonder that in film, the percentage of blacks among characters of slaves and rappers is higher than 13% (the approximate percentage of blacks in the US population)? In that case, surely the fact that the vast majority of slave owner characters are white is indicative of anti-white prejudice, right? I mean, at most 73% of slave owners should be white (and don’t forget, of every ten fictional slave owners, one should be Mexican!).

Again: there are just so many legit reasons why representation and primacy of races, genders, sexual orientation, age, etc. in fiction may not be evenly distributed, and not even representative of the real world.

“What about a film that excludes black people entirely? Is that bias?”

It doesn’t have to! The burden of proof is on the person making the accusation of racism — not on the artist.

Why is it that hard to imagine that in certain occupations some genders/races/ages/religions are more represented than others, and that those people and the projects and companies they create tend to focus slightly more (or even much more) on their stories, subcultures, interests and tastes?

Do gay comic artists portray mostly straight characters, or do they have a special interest (and the right) to focus on people like them?

Do female writers put male protagonists in 50% of their novels? Why should they?

Aren’t there too many intellectuals, too many rich people, and too many Jews in Woody Allen films? Is that classist? Is that anti-Semitic because he indulges in stereotypes about Jews and makes fun of them? Or is that anti-gentile because non-Jews are unfairly under-represented in his films? Or… is it possible that is just what the guy knows best and enjoys doing, and what his audience prefers and expects?

“It’s complicated.”

It is, sometimes. I’m just saying: don’t try to make it more complicated than it needs be.

/cc @bonifartius @freemo

@tripu @bonifartius @freemo

Been away from fedi for a few…

@tripu said…

” '...a thread specifically to comment on the films.'”

“I saw that. It’s great, thanks! (I only saw two or perhaps three of them, so I can’t comment on those ten specifically.)”

Which of those films did you see? Maybe between us we’ve seen them all. I picked up a couple over the past few days and I’ve now seen “Manchester by the Sea”, “Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol”, “Moneyball”, “Lion”, and “Looper”. And I’ve read about or seen enough clips of “Moonlight”, Moonrise Kingdom”, and “Logan” to make a confident assessment as to whether or not they contain bias. I’m pretty sure about “Midnight in Paris”, but I’d like to actually see all the scenes with Josephine Baker before making an assessment. I know very little about “Mad Max” other than that I really don’t want to watch it – to have to inflict that on myself!

“I care about injustice. There are injustices much, much bigger than the black/white gap in the US and that are treated very seldom or never at all…”

This is known as the fallacy of relative privation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Fallacy_of_relative_privation), the argument that because there are greater problems in the world, therefore the topic under discussion lacks merit or validity. The end point of that chain of reasoning is that we should only discuss/consider nuclear annihilation or some other existential threat. I assure you that for many people, racial discrimination against black people is a very real and damaging issue. (and it’s the original topic of this discussion)

“How on Earth is film, or any other art, supposed to be realistic, balanced, representative?”

I am not looking for perfection. I’d just like to see improvement. The first step toward improvement is to identify the problem, to actually see it.

“That’s why I’m sceptical of your “pessimistic” view. You can’t diagnose Hollywood by looking at its worse output only.”

This is why are looking at a (psuedo)random list of films. To get a feel for what the prevalence is. Once you see it – see some of the techniques that they use to promote racial bias – then you will be able to recognize it in other films as well, and perhaps get a better understand of how pervasive it is.

” 'Regarding bias against white people, I have just one question: Would you rather be a black person in the US or a white person? There’s your answer.'”

“How is that relevant? … Why would prejudice against whites, or men, or Christians, be any different?”

Perhaps it’s not as pervasive in Spain, but here in the US, it’s a pervasive, entrenched social problem. We fought a huge war over it. It’s persisted for centuries. It’s so entrenched that people see white as the default and black as something different. When someone sees a white man or woman, they think, “there’s a man” or “there’s a woman”. But when they see a black person, they think, “there’s a black person”. A recent example right here on qoto, @freemo said, “That said while Pat’s point is valid that there is bias against blacks to some degree I want to point out when i see movies intentionally made all black, like that all-black version of wizard of the oz I personally find that equally unacceptable.”

The Wizard of Oz is a beloved treasure. Everyone loves it. It has special relevance to Friends of Dorothy. But as @freemo points out, Toto was the only black character in The Wizard of Oz. Black people were specifically excluded from the film. But because white is the default, people don’t notice that, they love the film without even thinking about the racism. But an all-black version of the film is noticed, and objected to by some. (The black version was not made to discriminate against white people, is was made to dramatically draw attention to the fact the “white” is default, that the original was racist.)

This is why bias “against” white people is different than racial bias against black people.

And regarding portrayals of black people as a reflection of society or meeting some percentage ratio of occupations, etc. – do I have to say it – two wrongs don’t make a right. (Bias in society is wrong, and so is bias in film.)

Regarding all-white films… Yes, that is bias. When there are no black characters, or when black characters are relegated to menial or minor characters, that’s bias, especially when it happens repeatedly over and over again, or when those Hollywood producers then turn around and make a “black” film, segregating black actors into a movie that is promoted less to a segregated audience, and the film portrays a negative situation for black people, such as slavery, poverty, etc. (Note: Black films that are written and produced by independent black artists in an attempt to control their own identity, to present a narrative that is more positive than the stereotypical films I mentioned above, those black-produced films are in a different category from the big Hollywood films with black themes that may not have the interests of black people as priority.)

Please let me know which of those ten films you’ve seen and what your assessment of them is.