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@louis Yes I better understand your stance. I dont agree with it entirely but I do understand what you were trying to say now.
On the one hand I do agree that most psychiatric disorders are a bit arbitrary. In the sense that they just describe arbitrary set of behaviors that tend to be self destructive. They are not particularly special compared to any other personality traits you could describe
The key here is two fold though. 1) that these traits are self-destructive, thus why psychiatry or other forms of help are important. 2) Medications DO help, and some people need them and they are certainly better off than not having them. Of course a person should strive to not need them, as a solution with fewer meds has fewer side effects (like being a zombie). But they are often a necessary stepping stone (and for some perpetual). I have seen it work for people who otherwise would have killed themselves long ago. Solutions arent perfect though sadly. So they dont always work either.
You need first to learn basics, then talk of the surface. There is no real help in drugs that make person dumb, and senseless, it does not solve any problem, neither ever solved.
@louis Depends on which psychiatrist we are talking about. I have no doubt there have been plenty of prejudice psychiatrists and teachings throughout the years. That is true of almost any subject sadly. But I dont think that it is valid to make those statements as sweeping statements of all psychiatric or even the majority of modern day psychiatry.
As for solving problems, it depends. Generally what it does is put someone in a sane enough head space to seek therapy, then (at least sometimes) get healthy enough to get off the medicings.
I know countless people who spent many years suicidal and depressed. Some of them went on medication and a few years later with therapy were better, their problem was "solved". Even though they cant solve everyone's problems medication can be a route to a solution for many.
I gave you facts, facts are undisputable.
Read:
Tiffany Fawn Jones is an Associate Professor of African History at California State University, San Bernardino, California. Her research interests lie in the intersection between ideas of health, race, gender, sexuality and power structures in Africa. She has published widely and is the book review editor for Notes and Records: an International Journal on Africa and the African Diaspora and the copy editor for the Journal of Retracing Africa
https://www.amazon.com/Psychiatry-Institutions-Apartheid-African-Studies/dp/0415886678
Do you want to say that the fact hat psychiatry abused gay people for them being gay is not a fact, for reason that CCHR is disseminating that fact?
Do you want to say that CCHR as organization have not done good for mankind, for example, by disclosing the circumstances of apartheid, and racial profiling, concentration camp, made by psychiatry in South Africa?
Facts friend. We speak of facts, not personal feelings.
But research yourself along the lines: https://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/12-shocking-facts-psychiatric-drugs/
Do you know about FDA warnings issued on many psychiatric drugs in USA?
I was in Berlin museum of holocaust. There are letters issues, and one letter is significant, it says WHY to kill the not-worthwhile live, the reason WHY is that all jews, Africans, gypsies, and few other groups, like German retarded people, some religious groups were regarded as shizophrenic.
That is not medicine, that is psychiatrist opinion.
Their ideas and activities last after the war. But instead of burning people in concentration camps, they deal with dangerous mind altering drugs.
Facts cannot be disputed. We can speack and say it is not so, but reality is there out to be found easily, I gave you few references where you can find the facts.
All I know is i studied a lot of psychiatry and while some people will always be racist it is clear to me the study and science is largely not racist in how it is structured.
There is a lot of racism historically, no doubt, but that doesnt invalidate the modern science now that we have eliminated the bulk of that racism from the science.
I jusge if someone or something is racist not be how it was 100+ years ago but by how it is now.
there is fact, that Germany psychiatrist formed the idea and thought to kill the not-worthwhile lives. This is meant for jews. All holocaust is based on those ideas. Coercive sterilisation was psychiatric surgery. Those are undisputed facts.
Agreed if a source or even a person has very clear bias and agenda, rather than an objective evaluation of fact, it usually means its too low a priority on my to-do list for me to get to it. It isnt about willful ignorance so much as just prioritizing your time to bes maximize how you learn useful new information. Discredited sources generally waste time in that pursuit more than other ventures.
Sounds awesome, right? What is the secret? Swedish society and physiology is not all that different from the USA after all. How do they manage it?
Maybe Swedish society is a bit less stressful? After all, there's parental leave and vacations on a whole other order of magnitude than in the USA, and there is heavily subsidized medical care and no crime-ridden megacities. Life is just better, and Swedes compete with the Danes on being the happiest people on the planet.
Swedes kill themselves 20% more than US Americans.
> mental health carries a stigma in Sweden
*wink*
I dont know the facts here so i cant say for sure. But if you can show that there is more stigma (perhaps by showing a low prevalence of seeking help when you need it) then I'd say its a fairly rational argument. I dont doubt this is the case, just haven't confirmed it.
www.vice.com/sv/article/jm9g38…
Ok so read the article.. Here is my take.
1) In this case I'd imagine that the article is likely somewhat accurate just because it sounds plausible.
2) the article on cites a single reliable source, and that link didn't work. so I cant confirm the data myself. Though again If i had to guess i wouldn't be surprised if the article is still true.
3) vice is certainly as discredited a source as the other one presented earlier. They are known to have a fairly extreme left leaning political agenda. Objectivity is not their goal, promoting a left-agenda is. I am not saying the left is bad or anything, only that this is no more an objective source than the other links.
So in short, I dont disagree with your general argument, though still lack the data to confirm. But the link itself is not a credible source to make your case regardless.
@freemo Anecdotal evidence incoming: the Swedish mental health system isn't exactly very good. No idea about depression, as I only had to work with a different kind of neuropathology, but getting doctors to read non-outdated manuals was a bit of a challenge. There's some good research happening at the forefront of it, but the state of the clinics is a peculiar one. Also, the climate is conducive to SAD and depression, because much less sunlight than people normally need -> Vitamin D deficiency.
@werekat Doesnt surprise me at all. Any healthcare system that is based on extremist ideologies like 100% pure free market or single-payer universal healthcare is bound to be shitty. We see it in the USA, England, and apparently Sweden. I can say as a Dutch person it is also true of the Dutch system.
Sadly people are just really shitty at come up with good systems that dont behave at one end of an extreme or another.
I know that antidepressants are about the most sold "medicine" in pharmacies, and this I know as I have asked several pharmacies face to face about that. This may vary, as my questioning was few, few pharmacies in certain area of the world, cannot be generalized for all the world.
However -- antidepressants are marketed, well marketed and well solved.
Higher purchasing of antidepressants or lower purchase volume, indicate only tha something is wrong or good with the marketing for them.
But in itself, antidepressant will never solve any underlying human problem.
As if one feels depression for being a victim in such situation where one is not being able to do anything -- just as example of a human condition -- no drugs, and no chemical stuff injected into body is to give the idea to the person on "what can be done about it".
Such exemplary problem could be solved by simply -- brainstorming. Speaking to somebody or speaking to several persons to find possible solution on how to escape the situation where one may feel a victim, or feel not be able to do anything, somebody else will have better opinion and may give incentives to the person.
Giving them drugs is not solving any human problem.
Finally, those drugs are sold on unproven grounds, an many are FDA labeled in the USA as causing depression, causing psychotic feelings, suicidal thoughts, and can create true killers.
I did hear later on too late for me that the drugs only work for a minority of people. They also have the potential for awful side-effects like causing the problems you go into it for. It's all experimentation. I don't think the people giving them to me were even qualified for that position, and it was hard to convince them to get me off it when I realised it was detrimental and gave me what I'd call withdrawal for my brain.
Its hard for me to respond to that because i wasnt there, we just have your opinion. While i completely believe it is an honest opinion you hold, its still tricky on a few accounts.
For example if i take everything at face value then it sounds like you just had some really shitty doctors. From what I know of UK healthcare that is no surprise your system is horrific and you will have a hard time finding qualified doctors in general.
If that is the case that is not an argument against psychiatry it is only an arguments against unqualified psychiatrists. Which i agree are likely to do more harm than good.
The other side of the coin is that depending on the nature of your mental health its hard to gauge what sort of mental health issues you have and if that prevents you or not from being objective about your own treatment. Not saying this applies to you, I dont know you. But it is common for many with mental illness.
I once helped someone I cared about who as he got older developed Paranoid Schizophrenia rather severely. When untreated he couldn't sleep, believed people were beaming thoughts in his head, telling him to kill himself, i would often find him just crying in his room alone due to all the stress.
Despite this he refused treatment of any kind. He felt everyone was part of some grand conspiracy, doctors, me, everyone, so he naturally refused. Ultimately i told him the only way i would continue to help him is if he was getting treatment, otherwise he had to go back and live with his parents. This was enough for him to seek his treatment and take medication.
The thing is on medication he gave me a huge hug and cried as he told me how much happier he was and how grateful he was to me for forcing it on him in his otherwise incoherent state. Thing is after a few weeks he told me he was stopping the medication as he didnt feel he actually needed, he thought he was healthy again and the meds just "made him tired". So he went off of it and back to his old self in a few days.
The thing is when he isn't on the meds he would say things that sound similar, that it was all horrible and just part of the torture and "mind games" of the conspiracy. Despite the fact that clearly when he was on it and rational he felt it was helpful.
Long story short its hard to know without knowing someones mental health history if that may not apply or not.
I checked myself in each time when I realised I was getting out of control. It was only after all that that I realised how bad it was for me. The people were nice enough but the treatment wasn't what I needed. I've had to manage myself. I needed help because I was depressed, suicidal and attempting self-harm although it wasn't permanent with scars.
The meds were given to me by the GP. It was only meant to be temporary but it turned into over a year. I mentioned even being suicidal on them. It didn't help me and put me out of pocket. When I mentioned it wasn't working, the dose was put up. No one put me on anything else. Honestly, lifestyle changes have been the best for me... and I think a good support network would have worked. It's hard to have these in the modern day.
I beleive you. I have had some pretty horrific expiernce in American hospitals (not so much mental health but id imagine they can be pretty shitty too).
But i maintain my point, the issue you had was shitty doctors, not so much the whole principle of mental health, treatment and medication, just the more specific case of how it applied to you.
I'd also agree that we should strive to make sure that doesnt happen. We need to make sure we have well trained, high quality psychiatrists. That is so critical.
Well, that and I take issue with how the medication is done. It's all experimental since we don't have a test to determine what levels things are really at. It's not good to mess about with that. I didn't realise at first that it could make me more suicidal to be on them. I didn't really have anyone keeping an eye on me. I had to manage myself and preferred that in the end. It's still a struggle. I'm just fortunate that I'm so self-aware... it is both a good and bad thing. It makes people less likely to think I need support... but it does mean that I am better placed to be able to support myself.
I would say that if you know someone with depression or suicidal, then the best thing you can do if they are close is to be there for them. Talk to them about it and see what they think you can do to make things less stressful. The support of people around is so important. Depression is isolating. You need people who will stick with you that will form a healthy connection with you. It doesn't stop the pain but it helps with resilience.
Sadly I find that is a fairly universal problem with all single-payer healthcare. You get severly underpaid healthcare workers who need to diagnose you in 10 minutes and are paid so low no one wants to enter the industry either.
Dont get me wrong I'm not arguing for a purely free-market healthcare system either. I have a pretty solid solution IMO that is neither of these.
The term "mental health" is double-speak. It indicates, that if you are disgruntled with something, politicians and psychiatry have got a loophole to label you as "not normal" and remove you from society.
I do hold that there are evil people in society. But term itself is used to label everyone not-healthy, starting from babies being 1 year old to aged people, all for the sake of profit.
Thus if politicians promise "better mental health" I know they made open or hidden contracts with the largest industry in the world, psychopharmacy.
PArtly, but i agree a politician isnt likely to do a very good job fixing anything. We do admittedly have pretty shitty politicians in the USA.
That was my whole point with single-payer. It doesnt work (that is just the government throwing money at something). As I said, just as a pure free market doesnt work.
You can have neither of these in several potential systems.
One thing to research, and later to realize (hopefully) is that human problems categorized by the American Psychiatric Association in the DSM or Diagnostic And Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders -- ARE NOT diseases and medical conditions.
They are just as the manual says "disorders". This means disorder from "normal" human behavior.
But what is "normal"? That is what them, psychiatrist, wish to rule, they wish to say what is normal and what is not normal. It is for their agenda, not for agenda of people.
They, psychiatrists, would like to be medical, but they are not. It is not medicine, it is not science. It is body of knowledge based on opinions and authorities.
There is no reliability in the DSM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders#Reliability_and_validity_concerns
Before, being "negro slave fleeing the master" was psychiatric disorder. Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania As a remedy for this "disease", doctors made running a physical impossibility by prescribing the removal of both big toes.
Human problems, like communication, relations, feelings CANNOT BE SOLVED with drugs. Or anything chemicals. One can drug oneself and become less aware, this for sure. One can drug one self and become a living zombie, this all works, but underlying problems are never solved with chemicals.
Just don't believe psychiatry. Its roots are rotten.
While I stand by the point that medication and therapy when done right and with the proper care are overall more beneficial than harmful I did want to share this image just for the lols and to lighten the mood a little.
this is basically how you guys see pharmacists :)
Nah, Sim is right. The drugs are a joke. A scam. Here, let a licensed therapist tell you. https://youtu.be/tiC-8suDDaI?t=140
But most importantly, the mental health world DOES NOT have the same goal as mental health patients. You go in wanting to figure out what's wrong, work through your problems, solve them, find closure, regain balance. Psychiatry and psychotherapy have different goals — keep you from suddenly doing anything weird and be a good, productive, tax-paying sheeple (or if you're really fucked up, sort you off to the side so you don't interfere with the others). So, no quitting bad jobs, marriages, walking out on your kids, mortgages, etc. Definitely no confrontations with parents, friends, wives, bosses, or other authority figures — even though that could bring you closure and even solve your problem, it's dangerous and destabilizing. Better to dope you up.
The other part of it I think, Freemo, is that most people DO know objectively what they need. But what they need is often inconvenient. You go in at 15 and tell people "Everyone hates me" or "I have a terrible life" and they tell you, "Noooo. You have a family that loves you and you have a lot of wonderful things in your life." And the evil thing is... You were right to begin with. But it will take you another 10-30+ years to realize it! You thought that everyone hated you, because you were surrounded by people who DID hate you. You had family or a spouse or friends who had contempt for you. It's not counteracted by those people telling you they love you. That's a manipulation and abuse technique, it's not affection. And you got to thinking your life was pretty bad because you were in whatever situation you were in. Well, it was. Ha! But they just want to dope you up and keep you going along without growing and changing and breaking with the past and choosing a new and healthier future. Mental health is a racket. People are better off trying to sort it out on their own with journaling, meditation, and healthy living.
And as far as the severe illnesses, it's really the same thing. They're not wrong that it's a total conspiracy. They see something is wrong, with their family, their environment, the Clown World at large, and everyone around them tells them it's not. If they can't get out of the situation or resolve it somehow, they will eventually split off mentally in order to handle the trauma. All the delusions and hallucinations are entirely real, but they are being expressed allegorically, the only way that person can get anyone to listen to them without immediately dismissing their concerns. It's actually possible to resolve even serious mental illnesses by understanding this and unraveling it, but it's difficult and in most cases it doesn't get resolved.
I stopped being a good goyem and used therapy and meditation to fix the issue I had (real bad panic attacks caused by eating food/being around smoke). Dr just had me take an SSRI.
Fucked with my sex drive and willingness to do anything. Only benefit was when I did have sex, it made me last as long as a pornstar 🍆.
Still though, fuck doctors that don’t actually care for your wellbeing. They just want that sweet sweet drug money (or free rep food).
Isn't it really bizarre that they basically try to put every 20-something on one or more of the 20 drugs that make it impossible to orgasm while at the same time encouraging crazy hedonistic sexual lifestyles? I still haven't figured that one out actually.
Yeah, it's a big (helpful) wakeup when you realize doctors aren't benevolent demigods. They're just ordinary people who've memorized a bunch of stuff (which they may or may not fully understand or remember correctly) who are pretty good at sales and acting.
Paraphrasing, but my dr told me that about the SSRI.
Meanwhile now I believe that SSRI’s are the main reason for all of these mass shootings. Oohp!
Mass shootings are the result of people being told to "sit down and shut up and how dare they speak up" one too many times by petty tyrant figures of authority (i.e., shitty parents, shitty teachers, shitty coaches, shitty brown-nosers, shitty sjws, shitty hr ladies, shitty cops, shitty lawyers, shitty judges, shitty politicians, etc.). People break the Social Contract by killing a whole bunch of random people because the Social Contract is worthless to them, because there's no longer an ability to redress everyday grievances unless they play an ancillary game of machiavellianism. And if they're unable or unwilling to play that game well or to debase themselves and suffer endless abuses and indignities... pow pow is what makes sense.
TL;DR, in this one case, I don't think it's drugs.
However, there are also influences which shall not be omitted from such analysis.
Quoting:
CCHR International’s investigation into school violence reveals that at least 36 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 172 wounded and 80 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs or undergone other behavioral therapy.)[2] At least 27 international drug regulatory agency warnings have been issued on psychiatric drugs being linked to mania, violence, hostility, aggression, psychosis, and homicidal ideation (thoughts or fantasies of homicide that can be planned).
https://www.cchrint.org/2018/02/20/school-shootings-mental-health-watchdog-says-psychotropic-drug-use-by-school-shooters-merits-federal-investigation/
Facts: https://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/
In simple words: people taking mind-altering drugs, have high chance for behavior-altering. This is very logical.
More simpler: psychiatric drugs are dangerous and solely made for purpose of profit of psychiatry and removal of non-worthy life from the Earth, just as envisioned by psychiatrist Alfred Hoche and Karl Binding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Binding -- same ideology is spread out NOW in the world, the destruction of unworthy life is going on, in front of your own eyes.
In the meantime in other non-drugged countries, 20year olds are reproducing like fucking bunny rabbits.
Gotta end that European race yo.
I've been to many a Psychiatrist. Not one has ever suggested to me a drug.
The reason its so common is because if someone is severe enough to seek mental health there is a good chance they need something more than just talk to cope with their symptoms.
Its exactly the same as the following silly argument: "Isn't it weird that most people who go to see a surgeon wind up getting one of the 20 surgeries that doctor performs".. Well duh, thats probably why most people went to see said doctor, to get treatment, so lets not be surprised that they... get treatment.
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