ᛕᎥᕼᗷᗴᖇᑎᗴ丅Ꭵᑕᔕ @Kihbernetics@qoto.org

Didn't know Google can also do translations:
https://www.google.com/search?q=translate+cybernetics+greek

@sozialwelten

Hi, SocialWorlds. Your post ended in my "Home" timeline probably because of the #information(en) hashtag, and even if I don't speak German it looked interesting so I "had" to translate it and respond. Hope you don't mind :-)

> #Distinction of #undecidable #questions in #known and #unknown #conditions of their #relevance.
#hypothetical / #factual
#Factually meant as a #question for #data as not yet known #information
#known / #unknown
In the case of #functional systems such as #economy, #religion, #art and #politics, only #facts are missing. How they are to be #understood is #clear.
In the case of #meaning and #ecology, #decisive #factors are #unclear.

In my opinion #data=#facts. You can't argue about facts the same way you can't really argue about the "hard data" (numbers, graphs) in front of you.

What you can argue about is the ***interpretation*** of that data, or the ***different*** private #information every one of us will extract from the ***same*** set of data (facts) in front of us. What information is derived from the data depends on the ***different*** #knowledge(s) each one of us has about the world.

@protagonist_future

Should **Fox "News"** be banned for spreading misinformation?

https://www.niemanlab.org/2023/03/why-journalism-schools-wont-quit-fox-news/

@protagonist_future

By all means, investigate and prosecute criminal behavior. Citizens and consumers need protection, both legal (formal from government agents) and communal (informal from individuals and society at large).

But don't go and preventatively de-platform "influencers" because, in someone's opinion, they spread harmful misinformation. It is not uncommon for bad actors to start playing the victim in order to silence dissent or information they don't like.

You have one recent example with the de-federation of the #qoto mastodon server:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Mastodon/comments/z68m3e/jeffrey_phillips_freeman_eugen_rochko_ceo_of/

> Unlike the Cartesian argument that living beings are like man-made machines, Kant was the first author who defended the view that organisms are deeply different from machines because their parts and activities are non-separable, and the functions of these parts are not externally imposed, but rather intrinsically determined.

*Moreno & Mossio*
Biological Autonomy - A Philosophical and Theoretical Enquiry

They might **behave** (function) similarly to machines, but the real difference is how they are **produced** and maintained.

@protagonist_future

Just saying that from where I stand there are no external information sources that can or should be regulated. Everything is just #data.

Every one of us as a #dynamical #learning #system creates our own #information based on whatever data we deem trustworthy in this external cacophony.

What data we select to create our own information and what we make with it depends solely on the internal state of our current #knowledge.

The environment can throw anything at you but what you make of it is up to you. While someone may get "sucked in" the downward spiral of conspiracy theories, others (with a different knowledge state) will just get annoyed.

So, bottom line? #Education is of paramount importance.

Control in #Cybernetics always has to come from the outside or is exerted, not internally onto the elements that make the system but onto something else outside of the "control" system.

Even such brilliant thinkers as #FJ_Varela, one of the "fathers" of #autopoiesis could not escape this profoundly ingrained "cybernetic" assumption:

>"#Autonomy means, literally, self-law. To see what this entails, it is easier to contrast it with its mirror image, #allonomy or **external law**. This is, of course, what we call #control. These two images, autonomy and control, do a continuous dance."

**Francisco J. Varela** - *Principles Of Biological Autonomy*

http://mechanism.ucsd.edu/teaching/f17/phil204A/readings/Varela%201979%20Principles%20of%20Biological%20Autonomy.part1.pdf

Control theories such as #PCT (Perceptual Control Theory), which are based on #Cybernetics, are primarily focused on the #negative_feedback control loop closed through the system's #environment and have little or no concern for the more important, internal #positive_feedback motor loop controlling the system's #growth and #learning cycles.

@protagonist_future

Having "information police" hunting "bad influencers" and dismantling their communication networks is a bad idea. Who decides what is the "misinformation" that needs to be hunted down?

If only people could get somehow inoculated with #knowledge so they are "immune" to conspiracy theories. Ah yes, it's called #education.😉

>The natural history of systems which exhibit #autonomy as a characteristic phenomenology shows that they share one universal feature suggested by #autopoiesis: organizational closure, i.e. indefinite recursion of component interaction.

(ibid. p79)

>#Autonomy - the assertion of the system's #identity through its internal functioning and self-regulation.

#FJ_Varela - *On Being Autonomous: The Lessons of Natural History for Systems Theory*
in:
*Applied General Systems Research* - 1978 - #GJ_Klir (ed.)
p. 77
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-1-4757-0555-3

@garyackerman

Why "versus"? It is all connected and, in fact, really simple.

Evidence is #Information distilled out from #Data by the #LearningSystem according to its current #Knowledge #state.

The extracted information is then *integrated* with the existing knowledge into a new knowledge state that will define both what further information (evidence) will be extracted from new (or the same) data as well as the system's behavior (e.g. questions asked):

@teledyn

I find watching this video distracting

Here are the original CBC Massey Lectures:

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/the-1973-cbc-massey-lectures-designing-freedom-1.2946819

The book (with pictures
:-)

https://www.amazon.ca/Designing-Freedom-CBC-Massey-Lectures-ebook/dp/B00WRNWB4G

@karlo

The #state I'm talking about is the present state of every living #DynamicalSystem which is controlled by the closed ***autopoietic*** process of #growth and #learning:

@karlo @jackofalltrades @MalthusJohn

#FreeWill is a *misnomer*. If our will is *free to do as it pleases* then we don't have any say in the decisions it makes.

The problem of #Will has nothing to do with #determinism. It is all about #Control.

As #individuals, we are born ***unwillingly*** within the #nature of our genes and the #nurture of our environment, family, culture, and society, upon which we have little or no *control*.

However, our #individuality (*singular*) and our current #knowledge #state were also affected over the years by layers upon layers of little decisions that we've made to ***willingly*** transition from one state to another "better" one.

In#Kihbernetics, #information, #knowledge, and #control are all internal to the system.

The #environment may throw things at you but how you #respond is totally up to you (your current state).

>In hierarchical societies, mockery is often associated with bullies whose power exceeds their moral authority. But it is also a tool of the weak, a means to pillory those in power and hold them to account. In the Ju/’hoan case this is best reflected in the traditional practice of ***“insulting the hunter’s meat.”***

Suzman, James. Work (p. 162). Penguin Publishing Group

With Musk, Biden is here just using an old, proven, hunter-gatherers' method to get booming young hunters in line 😎:

https://news.yahoo.com/elon-musk-said-voted-biden-110900121.html

“Yes, when a young man kills much meat he comes to think of himself as a chief or a big man, and he thinks of the rest of us as his servants or inferiors,” one Kalahari hunter told the anthropologist Richard B Lee in 1968. “We can’t accept this. We refuse one who boasts, for someday his pride will make him kill somebody. So we always speak of his meat as worthless."

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2019/dec/12/humans-were-not-centre-stage-ancient-cave-art-painting-lascaux-chauvet-altamira

Some authors consider the #TuringTest not a good test for finding out if an #AI is really “intelligent” because the test is "*purely behavioral*" and looks only at responses without investigating the mechanisms that produced them.

I think that asking for the "mechanisms" would in fact introduce unnecessary bias and invalidate the test. The test is solid in principle, it is just that we have to come up with some better test cases (scenarios).

#Meaning is usually described with #VectorSpace #Semantics as in the article below comparing the works from #CAShannon and #AMTuring:

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1093/bjps/axx029

Basically, what vector space semantics says is that the meaning of a message depends on the #Context provided by the sender's and the receiver's #DynamicalSystem #Knowledge #State.

As they are two different physical entities they will obviously be in different states, so the two meaning can never be *exactly* the same.