@freemo @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn To an extent, yes.

But I believe that (even in a more general sense), we ascribe too much blame to the liars and too little blame to those who uncritically believe lies. The latter create the demand that affords the former their living.

We, as a species, easily fall prey to confirmation bias. Those who refuse to fight it with critical thinking are absconding their duty to their community.

@LouisIngenthron

These are good points, cant disagree.

@derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn

@freemo
Oh look on the bright side.
Well if you've got a dystopian cyberpunk fantasy, societies headed in that direction. If you don't, get your nitrox certification, and you can drive a bit deeper/longer to escape it all. 😂

@LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn

@freemo *dive not drive

@skanman

I can go down 450 feet... I am well past nitrox :)

@LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn

@freemo yyyeeeaaah that's scary, are you bringing extra tanks? I wouldn't think you'd get much time at that depth, and a lot can go wrong. Have you gone down that far before?

@freemo @skanman @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Oh i can go down a lot further than that. We're talking about niveau, not diving, yes?

@derickflorian @freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
"they are making the decision to not see on behalf of others"
I disagree with this characterization. Those folks chose to join those servers. Sure, most likely, when they joined, they were ignorant of the blocking policy. But they can always learn about it and move.
Some people may want to live in gardens with arbitrary walls defined by others. 🤷‍♂️ Who are we to stop them?

@LouisIngenthron

The problerm is they **cant** learn about it, not easily... They are on a server where all dissenting voices are silenced, so they will never heard about it on network.

They could look at the block list, but since they are blatantly lieing about the evidence they will again be unable to discern the truth.

These people go out of their way to engineer it so their lies are the only thing anyone hears.. if you even try to discuss it or look into it you get attacked.

@derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn

@freemo @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Oh, come now. The idea that someone "can't learn about" something just because they're not spoon-fed it by social media is one of the more ridiculous fictions of the modern era.

You're doing the right thing by getting the truth out there for people who are willing to look for it.

Those who are happy with their ignorance can blissfully marinate in it. Those who aren't happy will start to ask questions and seek outside info.

@LouisIngenthron

I'm not saying they **can't** learn about it.. im saying they are in a position where it becomes much harder to learn about, partly for technological reasons (blocking) and partly for social reasons (peer pressure and threat of being suspended if you even ask).

@derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn

@derickflorian

There are absolutely servers on that list that deserve a personal block! I like the idea, in general, of there being a variety (a small variety, probably, to avoid needing second-level lists of lists) of shared Blocklists of various kinds. There just needs to be a certain amount of pressure to be open and transparent (and accurate) about list criteria, and I'm happy to be a small part of that pressure now and then.

In the short run it would be excellent if the list could be updated (if it hasn't already been) to say something correct in the qoto entry. Even for the sake of the list itself: since a brief glance at qoto will show that "no moderation, free speech" is inaccurate, it undermines the credibility of the whole thing.

@LouisIngenthron @freemo @toxomat @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn

@admitsWrongIfProven

The one thing people love most about QOTO it is our friendly nature where we treat people like a friend at a coffee shop, not an enemy to debate.. lets hope the #UFoI can bring that feeling to the wider fediverse.

@LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn

@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I would go further and say that the fediverse is a very friendly place.
Those trolls exist, sure, but i have had a lot of positive experiences not only on qoto but all around.

If we just ignore the trolls, that would be in danger.

@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn To hammer this down further:
I come from not twitter, but another platform where insults are forbidden, but being mean is not something that moderators would react to.
Accordingly, i built some neural pathways to accomodate. My mode of operation was "i can troll the trolls". Whoever is nice, nice. Whoever not, let's see who wins.
So i was looking around here and thought "i hear negative things, i should troll the trolls". I have hence understood that this does not make sense in this environment. Even just being mean is so extraordinary that i do not need to. And that includes the users from other instances i have encountered.

I even was sure someone was arguing in bad faith one time, but after i said i wanted to disengage that was honoured.

This is a place that has no physical location, but a great appeal.

@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Freemo's idea is certainly interesting, and I'm keeping an eye on it, but ultimately, I think the solution will be much like what we use for email: RBLs. You get a couple dozen different groups to run their own block lists. Your server ends up on one or two, no big deal. But you end up on a bunch of them and you get auto-blocked by just about everyone until you resolve the issues with enough of the individual lists. That way, it democratizes the process further, and no one actor can take down a server unilaterally.

@LouisIngenthron

That works fine for email systems where the admins are relatively impartial... doesnt work so well in a fediverse where people block you if you dont use their block list... We are seeing now just how easy to game the system is, you have tons of good actor instances getting targeted because of dumb reasons.

@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn

@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Nothing is ever impartial; it's all subjective. That's why the key is correcting those errors through the law of averages.

@LouisIngenthron

it isnt about subjective vs objective.. its about responsible due dilligance vs pitchforks and gossip... You cant replace due dillagnace by just averaging a bunch of people from a mob with pitchforks.

@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn

@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I'm with you here. It is hard, but not trying is the sure way to loose.

Yes, even if we try we will get stuff wrong.

No, it is not meaningless. People will notice we try.

@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I'd argue that you can, actually. What you can't do is change human nature and prevent the pitchforks in the first place. Instead, you just have to account for them and let the level-headed majority prevail. It's like how most people can't sing in-tune, but if you get a big enough crowd to sing together, their faults cancel each other out and they're in-tune as a group.

If you try to build a coalition premised only rationality, then it will be destroyed with a sneeze by the first irrational actor who gains power within it. Instead, we have to plan for dealing with the real human condition.

The way I'm thinking of it, it would be kind of like the Metacritic of the Fediverse. You could even have a survey of server admins each year about which block lists they trust the most and feed that into the weighting. Users could follow specific lists or aggregates.

The more I think about this, the more I think I might try prototyping something this weekend.

@LouisIngenthron

Level headed majority... Is this your first day on the internet? ;)

@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn

@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Easy to forget that the loudest folks aren't always in the majority

@LouisIngenthron @freemo @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I think you are forgetting divide and conquer here.
You argue about an inability to change, but what is to be changed is nuanced and manyfold. Of course you cannot change it in one go, that would be ludicrous.
But if you take it step by step, it becomes achievable. You can calm down angry people, if you take the time to listen. Not all of them, no guarantee. But it can work, and if you put in the effort, and if someone else also puts in effort, it becomes something that has a chance.

Sure, not as much of a chance as the rich and powerful trying to bleed us dry, but there is something. Possibly. If we try.

@admitsWrongIfProven I disagree with that. The folks who can be convinced like that weren't carrying pitchforks to begin with.
And once you solve one issue, there's always another.

The problem is simply human nature: some folks just want to fight and be nasty. Reform who you can and cast out who you can't.

@LouisIngenthron I would partially agree, but my experience in the fediverse does not support it. Like i said in another post, i thought i would have to troll the trolls, but they are actually sparse.
The nice people in between are worth supporting and putting effort into for me.

I can understand your way of thinking, it is not without merit in some situations. I merely do not see myself in one of those.

@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Eh, he does have a point. If the bad actors get blocked by most, the users will probably notice their fediverse is very small. It is a question of if you want to wait until all that joined a "bad" server have migrated, and if the platform as a whole will endure that long.

@LouisIngenthron Fair, i see your point. I guess i am less patient than you are :-)