SecondJon @SecondJon@qoto.org

@sbjohnsrpi
Are you familiar with distributism? Maybe also called distributionism? I've read G K Chesterton advocating for it...it champions individual property rights more than capitalism.

His objection to capitalism, if I remember correctly, was that it centralizes ownership /power to wealthy individuals and their corporations rather than to powerful politicians and bureaucrats and the state. In the end they appeal to the state for bailouts, so it's a shortcut to the worst of socialism. The idea was to make it very hard to get rid of one's privately owned land to encourage a broad distribution of power and rights rather than consolidating, whether private or public.

@sbjohnsrpi

I tend to want the minimal necessary centralization of power, meaning maximum freedom from government intrusion.

When Republicans want more centralized power I see that as a move to the left. It's a problem to see Republican and Democrat as the far limits of the spectrum, as it seems most are to the left side of the spectrum, seeking more centralized power as you said, at least nationally. I'm not affiliated with any party anymore, but as I tend to reject the redistribution of power away from individuals to give it to politicians and bureaucrats, which I think puts me on the right, where I'd see principled libertarians any anyone who likewise rejects federal power grabs.

But I think I use the terms left/right differently than others in some way.

Even more problematically, left/right means different things internationally. Any dictator is (by my understanding) on the left, because you can't be a dictator unless you've centralized power. Is Hitler, the national socialist, seen to be on the right because he was in some ways not as in favor of centralized power as others? I'm not sure.

How do you define right and left?

@sbjohnsrpi
I think that's true. When I think left VS right I think of centralized VS non centralized (federated?) power. But I suspect most would respond thinking that one end of the spectrum is democrats who are unlike Republicans and on the other end Republicans who are unlike democrats.

Ie., being more or less like Bernie Sanders could mean very different things to different people.

that's not an ideological definition, but still informative in some way.

After listening to the very fun 12 Days of Christmas medley by Straight No Chaser, I've had that Rains Down in Africa song stuck in my head. For 3 days. This has to stop.

@freemo
It determines who they are around to some extent. I think by definition things like public /state education and media will be majority those who believe in centralized power (which I call Left), so those in favor of distributed power, or perhaps a federated approach, rather than centralized will always be at least exposed to and often surrounded by those on the left.

I unaffiliated with the parties after their election of the historically least popular candidates in 2016, which has changed my perspective; I think it's allowed me to be more fairly critical of "my side" which has allowed a lot of really informative and constructive interactions with those on other sides of issues.
@celesteh