Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
After much discussion among the mod team we've decided to silence the @spinster instance for QOTO users.
We do not take the silencing of an instance to be anything less than totally serious. We have had issues with being silenced and we do not wish to simply ban an instance because they disagree with us.
Abuse and harassment without moderator comment, however, is a different story.
There are many showings of misandry, anti-trans ideologies, and abusive behaviors dressed up in the guise of 'Protecting an Oppressed Class'.
We at QOTO do acknowledge that there are a great many issues facing women in this world, and that indeed the current social structure of society is almost certainly stacked against them, as it is other oppressed and minority groups.
We cannot, however, support an instance that has little to no moderation of it's more extreme elements that cross the lines of understood acceptable behavior on Mastodon.
It is important to note that this is not necessarily a permanent decision. Should Spinster change their moderation stance on their users and begin to better police their instance we will be happy to unsilence and try again to have a relationship with these people who are undoubtedly trying to fight for what they feel is correct.
As I have said before, and will say again:
It isn't what you say that's important, it is how you say it.
🇳🇱
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
Do you think we could wait until @alex is back in town to proceed, so that he can check what's what and give us his opinion?
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
I am in no particular rush. If alex specifically asks me to hold up judgement on our end while they discuss futher I would be happy to do so.
However the response I got from their admin sounded like it was their final decision, was very abrupt, left no room for discussion (and didnt welcome it), and frankly came across as an BS excuse that even she didnt buy but was using it as a scape goat.
So if that is truly the final decision then I'm not sure what waiting would matter. But if the admins reach out and say the recinde that final decision and would need more time to come up with their final decision, in that case I would have no objection to pushing the deadline for making the silence go live back a a day or two.
Ultimately alex would have to make that request though or someone else from the mod team there.
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
@arteteco @freemo @alex @Surasanji @mk I would personally be against blocking a whole instance. Can't we just silence the impolite and abusive?
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
Well keep in mind we arent blocing the instance at all, we are silencing. that means if you wish to follow someone you can and will see their posts once you do. but unless you follow someone you wont know the instance exists.
The reason we cant simply moderate their individual users is because they arent on our server. Moderating our own userbase is a full time job, moderating the millions of people across the whole fediverse individually is impossible. Especially if you have mods that let anything go and wont act themselves.
Consider a similar scenario, a intentional bad-actor instance. No moderation of any kind. So someone who is really upset at you decides to write a bot (or do it manually) and start creating a new account every 15 minutes to send you harassment and spam. Sure you can block them but every 15 minutes they just get a new account and start over, no moderation so nothing you can do. you would be forced to be exposed to that. Thats why we step in. Basically if a person chooses to disengage from a conversation, they have a right to (As you just pointed out). the only time we will react at an instance level is when that right is violated as it has been here.
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
@freemo @arteteco @alex @Surasanji @mk I get it. And though it hasn't come to that at this point, I understand your wanting to keep things safe and reasonable. I trust you will do what you feel is right, and I am here as a guest. I just felt I should let my opinion be known, in case it mattered.
It's your bat and your ball, and whatever you choose to do I will happily live with.
I trust your judgement, If I wanted drama I would have stayed on birdsite and followed the president. :)
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
Your opinion. and everyones opinions matter and are valuable. Always feel free to share them so long as you do so with respect as you always have.
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
Yes I was able to mitigate the issue by blocking the user (more severe than a mute). Though as a mod obviously i cant entirely ban a user. So by the next day when i removed the ban they kept on flooding in she had been at it all night.
Not to mention by this point many users also began following suit and started tagging me both inside and out of conversation, with others rejecting (and even mocking) my request to be left alone
Its a bit like asking "why not just manually block the spam in your email, you dont need a spam filter". Well doesnt work because this isnt an isolated instance.
Not only is the original user already in violation of continually sending messages to a user inbox without request, but since there no indication from moderators to deescalate such instances and issue warning it also means all the other users get in on it quickly.
We have seen how that mob-harassment mentality evolves (we have seen it happen to other instances and users in the past here). It is not acceptable and at a minimum the basic level of requiring for federating with an instance is a guarantee from its moderators that users who make it clear they do not want to be engaged by a particular user or group of users has that request honored.
That basic requirement is really what all this boils down to.
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
No call out culture is very different.
If they wanted to talk about me behind my back and refer to meby name they would absolutely have that right and I wouldnt have an issue with it.
That is not what we are talking aobut here. We are talking about intentional repeated engagement and harassment when the targeted user has request to be left alone.
Calling out someone is not equivelant to sending spam directly to their front door as we have here.
It is actually a **very** simple issue to solve. If someone asks not to be tagged by a specific user, that user **doesnt** tag them, if they do they get banned (or a warning for first offenses).
Yes its true others might start tagging me, and again thats fine, but with each person if i ask to be untagged again the same expectation (and if they dont its harassment).
No on can blame you as a moderator for the rogue actions of one or even many of your users. But ultimately how you respond to that, if you show it is against your policy and will be enforced is ultimate whats at question.
TLDR: Users can talk about another user all they want. But if a user asks other users not to plaster their inbox with unwanted messages (specifically to be detagged from that user), then once the user has been notified they are obligated not to continue.
The issue is **not** call out culture it is not respecting a persons right to disengage when asked, period.
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
Yes it would still be an issue. As stated aside from be contacted out of conversation there are two issues. One, as an admin I can't keep on mute since I need to moderate. Two, neither I nor anyone should have to mute an entire conversation just to disengage with a single user. Muting or blocking a single user still results in notifications because people who are tagged still get the responses to such conversation
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
I don't know how many different ways I can explain the issue to you.
I did not wish to opt-out of the conversation, the conversation was not the issue for me. I DID wish to opt-out of communication with one specific user.
**No** what you state here is nothing less than a lie "We don't consider it to be harassment if both users continue to engage in the conversation." I did not opt in to conversation with that particularly user I did opt in to discuss with other users. After I asked the user to stop tagging me they explicitly said no they would not and continued to tag me.
While they would have been more than welcome to reference me by name, talk about me, or discuss the topic further, they do not have the right to specifically TAG my name, particular when asked several times not to.
Compound on top of that that I took extra care, after letting the person know they were blocked to remove their tag from every reply I wished to make to people tagging me and discussing respectfully. Others are allowed to tag her back in, and she is even allowed to respond, but **not** to tag me.
This is common sense and pretty much the most minimalist definition of harassment.
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
@alex @mk @freemo @arteteco I assure you that it was not an easy decision for me to come to. I have very much enjoyed my interactions with your server and most of the people therein.
I, unfortunately, must base these decisions on what is best for QOTO and not my personal feelings towards a particular server. :(
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
@Surasanji @alex @mk @freemo @arteteco I do not agree with your decision. No one is forced to follow Spinster and I guess most of QOTO users are not interested in what happens there so this is not an issue for them. Instead, I am interested and your decision affects me as a QOTO user. If I don't like their "extreme elements", as you say, then I do not follow them and if they engage with me I mute them. I joined QOTO because its description says "A free speech space. No censorship here. We do not silence or block any instances." Why are you changing this now?
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
There is a big difference when we talk about someone harassing a user after they are asked to disengage.
No one will ever be silenced for an opinion they hold. But if a user is being spammed by unwanted tagged messages and that continues after they ask not to be, then that is the line.
How would you feel if someone wrote a bot that every 15 seconds created a new account ona server and spammed you, and the mods of such a server would do nothing to stop it? Obviously that isnt the exact case here but it does go to show there needs to be a very basic level of moderation that amounts to "1) if someone asks you not to send them messages or other spam that is repsected 2) if a ban is intentionally evaded"
Without these 2 basic rules then no, a user can not actually choose to disengage someone, they are in fact "forced" to listen even if they dont want to.
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
I should also point out there "extreme elements" is not the reason for the ban. The ban was due to the fact that those "extreme elements" were being shoved down the throat of users who respectfully asked to disengage and that request was not honored. It was made several times and even after a personal block continued..
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
@freemo @angelobottone @Surasanji
Hello all,
I was quite busy today and didn't pay attention to the matter here.
I have to say that I follow some people from spinster (2 accounts) and I enjoy them, never have found problems there.
Now, I see there is a problem with a single user - and with how the mod are deciding to deal with it, that is fine.
But couldn't we take a couple of days to think this through? This all problem seems quite easy from here.
I think (hope) that @alex and @mk obviously want to protect their users, but also would not want a block.
I'm asking to the spinster mod, can you just keep an eye on that user and if he happen to tag freemo again proceed with, idk, something?
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
Originally it was a dozen users, but at this point it has progressed to dozens who continually, and out of spite have been tagging me *my in box has been flooding all day".
Without moderator intervention or prevention, and they already made their final decision and made it quite clear there would be no action, it continues.
At the beginning of all this I never requested the user be banned at all. I requested that the user be told that their actions were against the rules, warned, and if it continues with other users (even on other servers) that the user be banned for breaking the rules.
That was of course a pretty minimal ask, but that was refused. Now with dozens fromt he server on blast in my in box, and still not moderator intervention, it has become clear that they will not act.
With that said I did give them our contact information and let them know that should they wish to act and get this problem (which appears rampant) under control, then we can always unblock them.
Also keep in mind this is a silence. While no user will see that spinster even exists, anyone you currently follow or who follows you will still be able to interact with you normally, this wont be a hard-ban at this point.
I too had people from spinster I was following and wished the admin team at spinster would have behaved more equitably on this. But after hearing their final decision it would seem there is no where else to go but to issue our final decision.
With that said the silence itself wont take place until the day is over so they have plenty of time to change course if they wish, even after that they can email us should they intend to address more seriously the harassment problem from their user base.
re: Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
@Mrkhvoice @alex @mk @arteteco I'm assuming this is a continuation of the previous conversation. I'm afraid I haven't seen it until someone else I followed boosted it. My apologies.
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
@Mrkhvoice @alex @mk @arteteco At this point, however, I think it best not to dwell on this and to go whatever way you'd like to go.
As I'm sure you've all noticed I still interact with some members of the server, and happily so.
I just only see the people I follow now. So, if you'd like to speak to me directly, I think you can DM me. This is not the solution I personally hoped for, but it is the situation we're in now. The only thing to do is muddle on through and perhaps revisit it at a later date.
I do wish you good luck, and good health in all your endeavors and please let me know if there's something I can do for you.
@SPRENGLARF
No one is blocking, a silence has been set, and the political opinions of anyone were completely irrelevant here
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
@Mrkhvoice @alex @mk @arteteco
I can only speak for myself as to why I voted the way I did. I can speak for no one else, nor will I try.
Through the first part of the argument I was trying to reach consensus. I was then attacked by several members of the Spinster community and called some rather unflattering things. At no point were these people moderated in any way by Alex or MK. I figured they were busy dealing with the shit show.
But if one person speaking to the community, as a moderator of a different community while trying to find a way to work through what he saw as a rather petty and minor issue (On both sides, don't think I didn't tell Freemo my thoughts. I did and I do.) is attacked by that community he was actually trying to defend it leaves a rather sour taste in his mouth.
This is a very small thing, Claire and is somewhat part and parcel of the federated nature of Mastodon. People are people- right and wrong. I did, in the end, vote to silence Spinster.
And I did so for the entirely personal reason that I was unfairly attacked by the spinster community when I had done nothing, in my opinion, to deserve it.
My attempts to try and deescalate the situation were thrown in my face and I was called something along the lines of a 'woman hating neck beard' by one user. I'm fairly sure that same user called me a creep, as well, which again is not fair or true.
I still follow more people from spinster than any other instance. I will continue to do so because I enjoy interacting with those people.
So, with my personal reasons in mind: that I came to try and honestly make things work and calm shit down and neither party would allow me to do so- The path of least resistance was to put a band-aid on the instance and try and let the situation cool down so later on maybe I could get something done.
That is unlikely to happen, though, if people aren't able to move on.
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
@Mrkhvoice @alex @mk @arteteco Lady, I wasn't criticized. There was nothing critical about what was said to me- they were attacks. Let's not mince words here.
And don't you try and throw my requested explanation back in my face like I owed you anything at all- I don't.
This is what I'm talking about. I have answered you respectfully and you turn it around and act like I've done something wrong by letting you know why I made my decision.
And now we're going to play the game about who's "Issue" is more serious?
Claire, criticism is different than abuse and don't for a second think I don't know the difference.
I didn't say anything about intersex people. I didn't call any woman a cunt. I didn't suggest ANYONE on Spinster die in a fire.
And since we're going on a whole 'I'd suggest by your actions' kick-
I'd suggest by your actions that you are still very upset about how this went down and somehow feel guilty regarding how things ended with QOTO deciding to silence Spinster.
That's why you can't let it go. You need the validation to kill that guilt.
In short, Claire, Fuck you.
Fuck you for trying to turn around my honest comments and explanations and play some sort of 'UH WELL IT'S WORSE FOR SOMEONE ELSE' game.
I tried to make things right and I got attacked- there was nothing critical or helpful about what was said to me, it did nothing to forward or advance the conversation or to help Spinster in any way.
Spinster USERS are the reason why I voted to silence spinster. Like it or not someone who was trying to help the situation got abused and attacked by users on Spinster.
Do not be surprised that he said 'Yeah, maybe we should keep Spinster from showing up in the federated timeline for QOTO users' based on his experience when he tried to fucking help you not be silenced.
I'm finished with this conversation now, Claire. I suggest you finish with it, too.
Silencing Spinster Instance for all of QOTO, CW for Length
@Surasanji
As a fellow moderator of QOTO I, of course, agree with this decision.
I would like to add that should a moderator or admin of spinster wish to reach out to me to discuss this issue further I can always be reached here: jeffrey.freeman@qoto.org and a general message to the qoto staff in general can be done by reaching us at our discourse server as well: https://discourse.qoto.org
While we will wait until the day is over to activate the silence after that no QOTO users, including mods, will receive messages from spinster, as such we will need to be reached through one of the side channels above should there be a need.
@alex @mk @arteteco