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I would have been happy if she just accepts evidence that is agains her conclusions just so others who use the list have an informed decision rather than a very intentionally cherry picked set of "gotchas" with everything proving it to be a lie just hidden away.... shows a lack of integrity to say the least.
@freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn It’s really disappointing that no one is interested in listening to unblocking qoto of those who are blocking us and delisting us. I think ample reasoning has been provided.
It doesn’t look like there is a solution and even though it unfairly affects us it’s their decision. Just wanted to register my disappointment.
I feel like they have adopted the right wing mantra that saying free speech is hate speech. Then it becomes a blank check to block any group of people you don’t like.
@derickflorian @freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Eh, I'm of the mind that there's no reason to get upset about it. QOTO doesn't block servers, so the servers decided to block themselves. It's self-selected curation. Anyone who wants their eyes shielded by another for arbitrary reasons is probably not the kind of curious, inquisitive person that I prefer interacting with on social media anyway.
All one can do is try to publicize the fiasco so that those who are curious can leave the draconian servers and come to the light of reason and open discussion.
@LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
I would worry about their unknowing users strung along.
1. Make an instance that promotes positive values
2. Acquire many users in line with those values
3. Act against those values
4. Oops. All blocked.
I think a lot of people that would be welcome here would be blocked. That is why we should absolutely go forth with freemos initiative. Not to protect qoto, but to promote human communication.
It was always a thing, people breaking down communications to advance nefarious goals. I think we could even make a better world, if we could protect good faith communication from trolls.
@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I would go further and say that the fediverse is a very friendly place.
Those trolls exist, sure, but i have had a lot of positive experiences not only on qoto but all around.
If we just ignore the trolls, that would be in danger.
@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn To hammer this down further:
I come from not twitter, but another platform where insults are forbidden, but being mean is not something that moderators would react to.
Accordingly, i built some neural pathways to accomodate. My mode of operation was "i can troll the trolls". Whoever is nice, nice. Whoever not, let's see who wins.
So i was looking around here and thought "i hear negative things, i should troll the trolls". I have hence understood that this does not make sense in this environment. Even just being mean is so extraordinary that i do not need to. And that includes the users from other instances i have encountered.
I even was sure someone was arguing in bad faith one time, but after i said i wanted to disengage that was honoured.
This is a place that has no physical location, but a great appeal.
@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @freemo @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Freemo's idea is certainly interesting, and I'm keeping an eye on it, but ultimately, I think the solution will be much like what we use for email: RBLs. You get a couple dozen different groups to run their own block lists. Your server ends up on one or two, no big deal. But you end up on a bunch of them and you get auto-blocked by just about everyone until you resolve the issues with enough of the individual lists. That way, it democratizes the process further, and no one actor can take down a server unilaterally.
That works fine for email systems where the admins are relatively impartial... doesnt work so well in a fediverse where people block you if you dont use their block list... We are seeing now just how easy to game the system is, you have tons of good actor instances getting targeted because of dumb reasons.
@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Nothing is ever impartial; it's all subjective. That's why the key is correcting those errors through the law of averages.
it isnt about subjective vs objective.. its about responsible due dilligance vs pitchforks and gossip... You cant replace due dillagnace by just averaging a bunch of people from a mob with pitchforks.
@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I'm with you here. It is hard, but not trying is the sure way to loose.
Yes, even if we try we will get stuff wrong.
No, it is not meaningless. People will notice we try.
@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I'd argue that you can, actually. What you can't do is change human nature and prevent the pitchforks in the first place. Instead, you just have to account for them and let the level-headed majority prevail. It's like how most people can't sing in-tune, but if you get a big enough crowd to sing together, their faults cancel each other out and they're in-tune as a group.
If you try to build a coalition premised only rationality, then it will be destroyed with a sneeze by the first irrational actor who gains power within it. Instead, we have to plan for dealing with the real human condition.
The way I'm thinking of it, it would be kind of like the Metacritic of the Fediverse. You could even have a survey of server admins each year about which block lists they trust the most and feed that into the weighting. Users could follow specific lists or aggregates.
The more I think about this, the more I think I might try prototyping something this weekend.
Level headed majority... Is this your first day on the internet? ;)
@admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn
@freemo @admitsWrongIfProven @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Easy to forget that the loudest folks aren't always in the majority 
@LouisIngenthron @freemo @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn I think you are forgetting divide and conquer here.
You argue about an inability to change, but what is to be changed is nuanced and manyfold. Of course you cannot change it in one go, that would be ludicrous.
But if you take it step by step, it becomes achievable. You can calm down angry people, if you take the time to listen. Not all of them, no guarantee. But it can work, and if you put in the effort, and if someone else also puts in effort, it becomes something that has a chance.
Sure, not as much of a chance as the rich and powerful trying to bleed us dry, but there is something. Possibly. If we try.
@admitsWrongIfProven I disagree with that. The folks who can be convinced like that weren't carrying pitchforks to begin with.
And once you solve one issue, there's always another.
The problem is simply human nature: some folks just want to fight and be nasty. Reform who you can and cast out who you can't.
@LouisIngenthron I would partially agree, but my experience in the fediverse does not support it. Like i said in another post, i thought i would have to troll the trolls, but they are actually sparse.
The nice people in between are worth supporting and putting effort into for me.
I can understand your way of thinking, it is not without merit in some situations. I merely do not see myself in one of those.
@freemo @LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn Eh, he does have a point. If the bad actors get blocked by most, the users will probably notice their fediverse is very small. It is a question of if you want to wait until all that joined a "bad" server have migrated, and if the platform as a whole will endure that long.
@LouisIngenthron Fair, i see your point. I guess i am less patient than you are :-)
@admitsWrongIfProven
The one thing people love most about QOTO it is our friendly nature where we treat people like a friend at a coffee shop, not an enemy to debate.. lets hope the #UFoI can bring that feeling to the wider fediverse.
@LouisIngenthron @derickflorian @toxomat @ceoln @PaulaToThePeople @SecondJon @shelenn