🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@qoto.org

@nerthos
that importance and prevelance in human culture applies just as much to weed as it does to alcohol. It has been around, and used across many cultures for at least 10,000 years with more than enough artifacts to back that up.

I do agree with you that generally drugs shouldnt be used. I never touch alcohol, i have no issue with smoking weed from time to time however.

I would MUCH rather seed a "coffeeshop" where people smoke weed in a public setting than a bar where people get drunk however. I rarely drink, I rarely go to bars. but as long as you arent hurting anyone feel free to do whatever you please.

@ayy

@nerthos
Funny how that standard is so far off.. Alcohol you only care if people are completely wasted, and in the streets. But weed even if you just smoke a bit to sleep at night in the privacy of your own home your fine with jail time... Clearly not a position brought about through objective consideration.

@ayy

@nerthos
Yup, in that regard i want the same. Which is what makes it curious you seem just as content with lumping weed and lsd into the category.. No one is stabbing anyone over lsd or weed. In fact your FAR more likely to have that be the result from alcohol. But somehow i doubt your going to be just as head strong on getting alcohol outlawed.

@ayy

@nerthos
Oh wait your one of those people who sees weed as a drug but not coffee or alcohol or some nonsense. Yea thats just a level of cherry picking your reality i dont really feel like getting into.

@ayy

@nerthos
Nope not what i want at all. What I want is the absolute minimum number of people harmed, part of which means reducing drugs as mucha s possible but doing so without causing more harm than good.

@ayy

@ayy
When dealing with large numbers and large populations eliminating something completely is never possible really, and getting anywhere near a complete solution usually means you've had to cause a ton of collateral damage in the process.

@nerthos

@nerthos
People who shoot up heroin dont willingly do it either. Usually the people who do are either 1) already severely mentally ill and suffering from other issues they are trying to self medicate or 2)got to where they were medicating physical illness like pain medication or anxiety, usually starting from legally prescribed drugs.

Very few people just wake up one day with a great life and little issue and just go "ya know what, today i think ill try some heroin"

@ayy

@nerthos
Except that isnt how it works. It only works that way if you pretend in your head thats how reality works. Most people who know anyone with a legitimate drug problem (cant function in society due to their drugs) know the vast majority are NOT trying to cure themselves because of fear of prison. Most want help because they suffer and dont want to suffer.

Its like suggesting people witht he flu would never never get better unless we make the flu illegal cause everyone would just be comfortable having it.

@ayy

Ok this is... interesting...

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0085531

@nerthos
Just mroe absurdity. Youa re "fighting" them because you provide rehabilitation which is actually effective and reduces the numbers of users.. the idea that you cant fight it if you cant threaten a person is just absolutely absurd way of thinking.

@ayy

@nerthos
that makes no sense. If its legal they can keep their business in any sense. They would be beholden to actual good business practices. Meaning they can't sell on a street, cant import the drugs, cant make it out a bath tub. You have taxes, regulations, age limits, and limits on who how and why you can sell.

They would have to go out of business in their current form and be replaced with clean legal alternatives with whatever regulatory warnings or procedures you want.

In an ideal world I'd say all drugs should be legal and provided via regulated production from stores. However the stipulation is if you go in and buy it you must first have a free session with a medical professional who would provide you warnings, advice on how to be safe, and strongly encourage you to seek free rehab.

since the vast majority of addicts who cant keep their life in order actively seek out help and rehab its reasonable to think this would have a huge impact. In fact when we look at other countries that take the rehabilitation approach the results have been amazing.

@ayy

@nerthos
Sure, and the best way to cut off their income is to make it legal.

@ayy

@ayy Again, at what cost... There are lots of ways to get drug use to 0. I could also nuke a country and get drug use to 0. But the measure of success has to measure over all harm, financial and otherwise.

@nerthos
there is a HUGE difference between discussing fighting the users vs fighting the producers.
@ayy

@ayy the only thing ive seen work are policies where the money is spent on medical help.

@nerthos

@ayy if you want to make that argument you'd have to show the cost, and the percentage of addiction before and after spending, and then compare it to a similar country using other techniques.

Morover youd have to evaluate how many lives were destroyed in one compared to the otehr.

For example in america even if you wind up in prison and get clean somehow more than likely your life has been destroyed by this (good lyuck getting a job as an exfelon). So even if it eliminated the drug abuse it would still be a failure since it just traded one problem for another.

@nerthos the idea that someone needs punishment simply because something is illegal is absurdity at its finest. If you want to make the argument that someone should be put in jail for something arguing ont he basis of legality is a circular argument. You have to show that it is justified for the act to be illegal in the first place.

Simply put, as far as im concerned the idea of outlawing a persons right to decide what can or can not go into their own body is the epitome of bad law, unjust law, in every regard.

I've seen both sorts of systems at play. I've seen shitholes like america where they outlaw drugs and everyone suffers for it. I've seen other countries like the netherlands where despite what the technical law may be no one is ever arrested for it, and that waste of money is directed towards excellent affordable drug rehab programs.

Guess what, I have yet to meet a single person in the netherlands with a heroin addiction and I can think of more people than i could count on both hands who have it in america.

Funny how that works, one actually solves a problem, the other wastes money and doesnt. But yea lets hold onto the idea of sticking to failed policy just because it was already illegal. Thats like saying we have to stick to failed policy because failed policy already exists and they knew it.

@nerthos Sure we could. We could also put people witht he flu in prison then while they are there force them to take the treatment we want.

The notion that they "wont do it on their own" is nonsense though. Like with any disease some people get better after many attempts of treatment, some never do. Most drug addicts I know have been voluntarily in and out of rehab more times than I can count, they very clearly do treat it on their own, those treatments just also tend to fail. It doesnt help that treatment is often tens of thousands of dollars they dont have and health insurance is unlike to cure.

Here is an idea, instead of wasting an insane amount of money on sticking them in prison with worse results, why not just actually provide for them good affordable rehab on their own.

@djsumdog I am a professional statistician, so I recognize those concerns. the issue isnt so much with the statistics being dangerous but how we use it.

I suspect it is very true that people who are abused at a young age are more likely to be gay. That doesnt mean abuse causes you to be gay or that everyone who is gay is so because of abuse. It could be that gay people are just a greater target for abuse, even by parents. To me this seems like the greater explanation, they see theri male child being "feminine" so they beat them a little harder to toughen them up or some nonsense.

It could also be that some people (though i suspect this would be a small minority) might respond to abuse by picking a type of sexuality that tends to be abused.. Gay people are abused in society and if a child was abused they may have some sort of a messed up psychology where they pick a sexual life style contrary to their natural disposition as a sort of self-abuse. Though if this is a factor at all we would just as easily see the reverse in society if being gay was the norm.

Regardless we should always be critical of our interpretations and entertain critical thinking about it and our conclusions. With that said it seems like a pretty safe bet that the correlation between abuse and mental disorder is causative, at least to some extent. It makes sense intuitively.

@djsumdog There was I'm sure. I tend to research memes before i post it. but I saw this one as an old post I made 4 years ago so i shared it here with faith that 4 years ago i fact checked it. Though sadly I no longer have the source.