@freemo

Yes, I think Jeff said it well - the fist step in the road to improvement is to recognize there's a lot more to learn.

So don't despair, and be happy you have the curiosity to seek this knowledge. You will have a better understanding, do better work as a result of the learning you acquire.

The course you described above sounds excellent. I had programming courses ages ago, as part of my first year Engineering curriculum, but don't feel qualified to point the way into a scientific approach to education deeper into computer science.

I agree fully with your insight that the concepts should come before learning a specific language; or be taught along with the language, as a way to practice and produce test code.

Glad to see you engaging in this fascinating journey, Karl. Go for it!

@Full_marx @tek @kornel @namark @raman @fahrni @mngrif @jump_spider @rodolpho @shibaprasad @Gomario @EdS

@freemo
@Full_marx
It's true, maybe one in a thousand programmers is good, one in ten thousand is truly exceptional

@design_RG @tek @kornel @namark @raman @fahrni @mngrif @rodolpho @shibaprasad @Gomario @EdS

@jump_spider

good is such a relative term.. but yea those numbers actually do sound kinda accurate ...

@Full_marx @design_RG @tek @kornel @namark @raman @fahrni @mngrif @rodolpho @shibaprasad @Gomario @EdS

@freemo
..numbers seem pretty bleak from here. 😔

Mastery is so rare, then?

@jump_spider @Full_marx @tek @kornel @namark @raman @fahrni @mngrif @rodolpho @shibaprasad @Gomario @EdS

@design_RG
Depends on what mastery we're talking about. Mastering computer science or informatics, that's probably a PhD level pursuit; programming is just a set of tools for informatics, and different languages are like variations of medical tools or chemicals. You can master a specific tool fairly easily given enough time, but you'll be limited by how every problem looks like a nail unless you learn how different tools can be used together. That pursuit is never ending.

@freemo @Full_marx

I don’t think it’s bleak. I’ve been doing this type of work for about 30 years and I still have plenty to learn. I’m OK enough to have worked on some amazing software. If you’re interested in programming computers just keep working at it. Ask questions. 30 years ago I was lost. Now I could manage a team through a project and deliver a great piece of software.

@design_RG @freemo @jump_spider @Full_marx @tek @kornel @namark @raman @mngrif @rodolpho @shibaprasad @Gomario @EdS

@design_RG

This issue is that 90% of people who get into programming never love it. Its a job they pick because they need to pick a job and they think it will make money. Thats all. So they are doomed to fail from the get go.

@jump_spider @Full_marx @tek @kornel @namark @raman @fahrni @mngrif @rodolpho @shibaprasad @Gomario @EdS

@freemo
That makes sense, and it's a pity. It can be a satisfying occupation, especially if the person is motivated by the problem solving, new challenges and constant learning.

But it isn't for everyone. I have seen some of the programming challenges posted here by one user, and imagine that an average student in high school would not react well to anything needing that much focus, and understanding of abstract data structures. (in case we proposed simpler, but similar challenges to them)

I learned the basics of programming when all we had was pencil and paper, maybe a blackboard, to jot ideas and develop it. When you had enough laid out to start creating the program, you would write it, line by line, and parse thru to see if it made sense.

Processing it came later, not instantly by pressing a key to try to run/compile it.

Teaching programming in high school, students had a hard time tackling a similar challenge - writing a small routine on paper only, and verifying that it would likely work. Was surprising to me, but most of them felt it was hard.

@jump_spider @Full_marx @tek @kornel @namark @raman @fahrni @mngrif @rodolpho @shibaprasad @Gomario @EdS

@freemo @design_RG

I don't think that you need to love a job to do it well. You might not be exceptional, but you should be able to do good. I think the problem software industry has is that, with proprietary software being the norm, there is no public eye on the mess that people make, which result in lack of standards and discipline, even in the free software islands.

@Full_marx

@Full_marx Which reminds me, if you find time you should check out any talks or courses by Alexander Stepanov(should be free on youtube). You can gloss over the c++ parts as it's not for beginners, but the rest is fun to listen to, in my opinion.

@freemo @design_RG

@freemo @Full_marx
Forgot to add that the rest of us, excluding Jeff here, just have to get by ~

Do you want to be a software engineer? Or a computer scientist? Studying "algorithms" is one thing, and reading code is another. Probably both is best. For code-reading, there's a book Beautiful Code for some ideas. And there are two, three or even four free-as-in-beer books about The Architecture of Open Source Applications.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/405790.Beautiful_Code

http://aosabook.org/en/index.html

@jump_spider @Full_marx @design_RG @tek @kornel @namark @raman @fahrni @mngrif @rodolpho @shibaprasad @Gomario @freemo

@binsrc Just reminded me one more thing. You can also try https://www.hackerrank.com/
They have challenges designed to improve Algorithms and logical parts.
@Full_marx

@binsrc
Maybe you were thinking of exercism.io?

@Full_marx

@jump_spider
Dunno, but that looks pretty fun. Nothing beats actual problem solving.

@Full_marx