🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@qoto.org

@Saederup92 Why not just address safety without infringing on liberty at all? Its plenty doable.

@honigdachse Funny how right around when people ban guns in every country all of a sudden people start reporting more crimes in the immediate years that follow... weird.

We call that cognitive bias, when you have evidence in front of you and still grasp for straws to come up with reasons why you still cant possibly be wrong.

Yes it shows a rise in general violence, thats the POINT. If you take away peoples means to defend themselves then violence goes UP.

Its the same reason why no one will ever argue that vaccines are bad just because vaccine related death goes down when they are made illegal. Because common sense tells you that vaccines have a significant impact on your health and PREVENTS other types of death even though it increases vaccine related death. Which is why no one would ever look at just vaccine related death, obviously.

The same applies to guns. If all you look at is gun related deaths well, your argument becomes pretty absurd to anyone who isnt suffering from the same cognitive biases.

Love this, been saying this for a while.

#guns #uspol

@ggrudanov These numbers are all normalized for population. They are in rates not in absolute numbers stuff like "number per thousand"

@ewok

@honigdachse I see your not familiar with how citing peer-reviewed sources work. Each source of data is clearly indicated in most of those images. You can follow the source and verify anything you want. I know as a professional Data Science I always make sure to follow sources and to double check that the data agrees.

Or youc an just put all your effort into being willfully ignorant of the data, up to you.

Always amazes me the lengths some people go to be in denial, i mean the sources are obviously printed on most of those charts. They are ALL compiled from published data sets.

@honigdachse

I refer you to this thread. It accomplished two things. 1) It shows why the argument "germany made guns illegal and now we have no gun deaths" is an absurdist argument that makes no sense 2) It analyzes the situation using the sort of real logic me and other Data Scientists use to actually analyze these sorts of problems.

It directly answers your question. It also provides a ton of graphs and data sourced from peer-reviewed sources to back up my claim.

https://qoto.org/@freemo/102564542332014831

@mkb True, good reason why guns should be legal. People have a right to kill themselves, they dont have a right to kill others.

@Saederup92 There are some fine regulations we could do but we also have to be very careful as to how. There are protections in place that one should understand first, and other consequences.

For example mental health checks would be a HUGE civil rights violation and an easy way for government to selectively restrict access on unfounded grounds.

On the flip side requiring licenses to own guns could work under a few conditions 1) it doesnt allow for reverse searched of who has or doesnt have a license (forward searches only) 2) It cant be denied to anyone capable of passing the course.

@mngrif Please tell me that was a Star Trek reference :)

@alexa@fedi.absturztau.be

The thing is killing people is easy, sadly. If someones goal was to kill there are countless easily accessible ways to kill people en mass availible to everyone (I wont cite examples as i dont want to give ideas). The difference is that while most methods have a lot of collateral damage a gun in unique in its ability to kill with accuracy.

So while removing guns would eliminate our ability to safely defend ourselves it would do nothing about those out to kill without concern for collateral damage (most every killer)

@one @snder @a7 @yuduki @nerthos

@snder Counting time by the number of moths that you have seen is an interesting approach...

@honigdachse

"In germany guns are illegal, we have very few deaths by guns, this demonstrates that guns kill"

I'm a data scientist by profession. Lets take a look at this assertion shall we.

As a technique for drawing a conclusion based on data its usually best to apply the same techniques to other areas you don't have a cognitive bias in. Then consider if the logic still works or if it reveals some absurdity in the logic. Lets do that shall we....

After the country made vaccines illegal vaccine related death declined. In fact if you compare all countries where vaccines are illegal you will find vaccine related death is almost non existent. But in other countries where vaccines are legal vaccine related death is in the hundreds every year. I think this clearly shows why vaccines kill and should be made illegal.

I think this becomes very clear how absurd that particular approach to data analysis looks. But why? Well that's obvious. If we are considering a tool which has both the ability to save lives and take it then we will always get a fraudulent and bias answer when we apply this logic. Of COURSE deaths by tool X will be near 0 in a society that outlaws tool X. But it is naive to the broader picture. Namely how does the absence or presence of said tool effect ALL deaths, not just gun related deaths, and not just vaccine related deaths.Only then can you get a useful picture.

@honigdachse So before i respond am i being clear, your argument is basically "In germany guns are illegal, we have very few deaths by guns, this demonstrates that guns kill".. would that about sum it up?

@honigdachse I never made that claim so why would i show a study to prove it.. im not saying the claim is wrong either. I asked you a question, I am seeking to understand YOUR claim before i articulate any response to it.

@honigdachse Im a professional statistician who has delved pretty deep into this topic. Not sure what your talking about. Most countries who have attempted to implement anti-gun laws have had some pretty severe ramifications from that.

Worked in what way exactly, you have to be specific if i am to consider your point.

@Gargron Just do what I do and try random combinations until one appears to work and then move forward in blissful ignorance.

@honigdachse
As well you should. Sadly most attempts at doing so resulted in more deaths not less. But yea if you ever actually figure out a way that prevents the problem without causing more damage than good by all means, lets implement it.

@snder

Just remember your survival techniques and you'll be fine.

#meme #joke #jokes #humor #uspol #maga

@honigdachse
We dont check to see if people are responsible with most things (though i do agree in non-reverse searchable gun licenses that can not be denied to anyone who passes).

Whart it means is once someone starts to show signs that they are becoming irresponsible, as in they act irresponsibly with a gun, then we arrest them. Thats what I said. If you go around town acting irresponsible with a gun, you immediately get arrested (if people are doing their job) and any actual injury would be prevented in many caases.

Same thing we do with knives. Anyone can buy a knife, but if you start walking around outside with it and brandishing it in peoples faces you will get arrested and loose the right to hold it.

This seems like a perfectly reasonable way to treat it.

@snder

@a7

Man you meta-argue more than you argue. You've spent more time talking about how people argue, their character, or personal attacks and almost 0 time actually trying to express a point.

Stick to arguing not meta-arguing.

@alexa@fedi.absturztau.be @one @snder