🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@qoto.org

@icedquinn

Many are, irrelevant to the point though that PoW has an efficient replacement that is being phased in. So the argument has been made moot as we have solved that problem and are in the process of migrating to non-PoW crypto. In fact the only one of the top cryptos not moving to PoS is bitcoin.

@cobratbq @stux @peterdrake

@peterdrake

If everyone started using ENIAC equivelant computers again, despite modern efficient computers existing, would that be an argument that all computers are bad?

Also **most** (as in more than half) of the people dont use BTC. The vast majority of cryptocurrency users hold next generation cryptocurrency (about 2/3rds of all the investment in crypto)

@stux @cobratbq

@peterdrake

The whole ransom argument is like saying that because files on computers are easier to transfer around the world in an instant, and thus easier to steal, we should do away with computer files entierly and strictly store all our data on printed paper that is harder to steal, thus securing our data.

Obviously this is a horrible argument.

@stux @cobratbq

@peterdrake

We are both talking about crypto **now** and not some future version.

Bitcoin is gen1, there are many generations worth of newer solutions that dont remotely resemble bitcoin, so citing bitcoin **is** like citing ENIAC.

The undo works just fine, the fact that your citing cryptos that are older generation cryptos that didnt implement the undo yet is a cheat, we fixed that problem, if someone wants to use old tech where that problem isnt fixed yet (like bitcoin), so be it. But thats silly to cite that when the problem has long since been fixed.

> Transferring $5M in cash internationally is much more difficult than doing it with crypto. That’s why ransomwarers choose crypto.

This is true, crypto is far superior to cash, this is why rasomers, like many other people use it... so?

@stux @cobratbq

@cobratbq daminit i accidentally redrafted my original response and broke the thread, sorry

@peterdrake

> Maybe there’s some future version that won’t have these problems, but AFAIK they’re pretty central to all existing systems.

Computers were pretty damn inefficient when they were first developed too. Computers incrementally improved and became more efficient generation after generation and eventually became remarkably efficient.

The same pattern is true of cryptocurrency. While there is no blockchain tech right now that is exceptionally scaleable we again see generation after generation becomes more scaleable, bitcoin is the least scalable first gen implementation, Ethereum is considerably more scalable, and newerr cryptos are beating out etherereum, as will continue to be the case.

The pattern demonstrates a path towards global scalability, we may not be there yet, but like computers that is hardly an indication that the technology is a dead end, just an indication it is new.

> NYT: “The process of creating Bitcoin to spend or trade consumes around 91 terawatt-hours of electricity annually, more than is used by Finland, a nation of about 5.5 million.” (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/09/03/climate/bitcoin-carbon-footprint-electricity.html)

Using the first generation crypto to represent the efficiency of crypto as a whole, or worse yet the future of crypto is extremely disingenuous. That would be like me arguing that computers are wildly inefficient by quoting the statistics around ENIAC.

> The trouble with Proof of Stake is that it’s easy for a sufficiently wealthy person to take over the currency. (It’s also “one dollar, one vote”, which is not going to fight the overconcentration of wealth.)

Not thats not entierly true, partly. For a person to be wealthy enough to take over a PoS crypto, presuming such crypto was a world-currency, they would have to have 51% of all the money in the entire world. Even Elon Musk couldnt take over a world-wide crypto if he invested all his money.

Moreover even in the event someone could get 51% of the money for a takeover, all they would do is loose all of their money and take over nothing. They would lock up all their money into a stake vault and when they took over the world would notice the currency had been hijacked and would simply hard fork the chain and delete the stake. The original chain would devalue to 0 (And the person taking over loose all the money) and the new chain would be exactly as it was except the rich persons bank account would be set to 0. No one looses any money, world goes on, rich dude just lost all his money.

> From the first (Weaver) article: “Modern finance has this rule that anything electronic needs to be reversible for short periods of time. This allows an undo in case of fraud. Have you had your credit card compromised before? I’ve had my credit card numbers stolen a couple of times. The amount of money I lost is zero. Because we have both good fraud protection and good ability to reverse transactions. That does not exist in the cryptocurrency space. If your cryptocurrency wallet is compromised, all your apes are fudged.”

As we already covered cryptocurrency has the "undo" as well, so this is a moot point. The difference is the parties involved have control over that undo, not the banks. So if you deal with a party that you dont trust you use a cryptocontract, if you get cheated the contract reverses, if you dont the money gets locked in. You have all the same protections and more so because now you are in control of what those protections are and they are absolute.

> Ransomware ransom is overwhelmingly demanded in crypto, because there’s no other fast way to move millions of dollars internationally to known criminals.

Again, this is a problem for police not for money... Arguing that money is "easy to transfer and safe and garunteed" is somehow a bad thing just because it benefits evil people in all the same ways it benefits good people is a very disingenuous argument to make. The fact is criminal activity is the responsibility of police to deal with. Again illegal activity is often demanded in cash (such as physical ransoms) for exactly the same reasons, yet no one in their right mind would argue that cash should be made illegal simply because it is used for criminal activity because it is a reliable means of exchanging money.

@stux @cobratbq

@peterdrake

> The blockchain is deliberately and majestically inefficient. It is a solution in search of a problem.

Agreed, Current block chains are **not** the final solution and are not, as is, ready to replace money. They are, however, a technology being developed that will one day be ready. You can support the idea without encouraging people to move the worlds wealth over right now, as with all new techologies it takes to to mature.

> Crypto mining is wasted computation that contributes nothing to society and "burns as much power as a significant country".

This point is flat out false and uses a small subset of crypto to represent the whole. We have numerous cryptos that are computationally trivial such as Proof of Stake and even some that use proofs that explicitly use computing power to solve important known problems.

> Since crypto transactions are irreveversible (unlike bank transactions), it's ripe for fraud and theft.

Also a misunderstanding, though partly true. Smart contracts can (and do in many cases exist) to ensure reversibility. In fact this is a strength not a weakness, once money is transfered to its intended target a bank cant decide to just steal it back later, the goods transacted are guaranteed ensuring the government cant intervene. In other words, it is reversable when the parties engage want it to be, and isnt when they dont. You control your money not someone else.

> It's used mainly for drug dealing, child porn, and ransomware.

So is cash, thats a problem for police not for money

@stux @cobratbq

@cobratbq

Yup, and blockchains have many different iterations, each with its own properties, each designed for different problems. Not all are intended as replacements for cash either.

@peterdrake @stux

@peterdrake

Lets try this..Why do you think they are bad?

@stux @cobratbq

@peterdrake

That article is way too long-winded for me to bother with. I am happy to consider the counterargument, but ifyou wish discuss it lets distill it, that article is mostly chatter.

Nothing person I am just so tired of long winded magazine articles that could be summarized in two paragraphs and loose not even a smidge of info.

@stux @cobratbq

@stux @cobratbq

Not sure what meme your talking about. As for him buying cryptocurrency, that seems like a weak argument in and of itself. Cryptocurrency is the best way we have to get away from wall street and governments controlling our money. Free, decentralized, open money is the very spirit the fediverse itself is built on, I am shocked you'd be against it.

As for him "hoarding" money, I think you might miss how that works. His bank account doesnt have much cash in it, he just owns a lot of companies, thats not hoarding, thats wealth creating and job creation. If he had a vault filled with cash he just sat on you might have a point.

@stux

Not sure what you mean.. he seems to usually say this shit in a pretty monotone unemotional way as far as I have seen... did I miss something?

@cobratbq

@stux

What sort of fuck ups? He isnt perfect but he seems to mostly be shaking things up in the right ways more so than not.

@cobratbq

@cobratbq @stux Must spits way too much truth, it must be stopped!