🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@qoto.org

Be sure not to miss it. This is a once in a night time thing!

Your brain is programmed and evolved to think all this ::waves generally at everything:: is perfectly normal. It doesnt matter what this is. When the black plague was rampant and death and poverty were everywhere, it felt just as normal to those people as a world where we went from the first plane to a landing on the moon in just a few decades.

If you can pull yourself out of that head space for even a second the view is quite interesting from this side of the line.

@stux

Back in your day? You mean like a week ago? :)

@realcaseyrollins

Most people do. And while I dont think the christian approach of "follow this book" is any better (though manyc hristian principles are good ones), I think the idea of basing ethics on "what is normal" is probably one of the biggest flaws of humanity.

@realcaseyrollins

I do agree on both points again.

Out of curiosity, does "modern social standards" matter in determining what is right or not for you though? For me it doesnt, though it will effect how i judge a persons mental state.

@realcaseyrollins

1) I totally agree with your messager here. 2) out of curiosity do you also feel its inappropriate for black people to use that word in a similar setting and context?

@Murray_N

LAWL

@realcaseyrollins

@Murray_N

It goes way before the trauma though. Religion drove them to think they had a right to steal a land from a people and exterminate them. The trauma came later.

@realcaseyrollins

@Murray_N

Honestly I dont mind people being hypocritical IF they are currently int he right. People can change their opinions for the situation. But the fact that he does it simply to win an argument, rather than a realization of any meaning is the real damning part.

Also its just such a shit excuse.. like I know plenty of people who literally lived their whole lives in israel or palestine and clearly are so biased by their personal expiernces couldnt even begin to see the situation objectively or clearly. Sometimes NOT being in the situation can give you greater clarity than someone on the ground.

When I was in israel i had bombs blowing up all around me sent from Palestine as I sat in my high rise home, constantly needing to hide in a bunker. Most people would develop a clear bias and hate towards Palestine due to that personal experience regardless of the details around it. For many going there can be what makes you biased. I am just exceptionally good at emotional detachment (though not perfect), so for me that didnt really bias me strongly and I was more effected by my time getting to know the people on both sides and understanding their views.

@realcaseyrollins

@realcaseyrollins

Yea once he went down that road my eyes rolled so very hard they almost got stuck there. That was the moment he lost any chance of me taking him as an objective party in the conversation.

@Murray_N

@Murray_N

Yea, I mean the other guy knew he was lying to himself on some level, thats why he used the traps/smoke and mirrors at all. He knew if he actually debated ont he facts he wouldnt have a leg to stand on.

@realcaseyrollins

@realcaseyrollins

You can be... but being right doesnt mean your words have value either.

And Dave's position wasnt wrong, he just did a shit job at arguing because he left Douglas's bad faith argument lead the direction of the debate, he was reactive rather than proactive in the debate, and when you do that against a bad faith actor you will have a weak position whether you are right or not.

@Murray_N

@realcaseyrollins

Absolutely, good faith doesnt garuntee correctness. But him being the good faith actor does mean his opinion is more worthy to hear than a bad faith actor. Listening to a bad faith actor in a debate is little more than a individualized version of propaganda.

It also means you wont get to the points that Dave had that might have been incorrect, since you dont have good faith counter arguments to evaluate at all.

@Murray_N

@Murray_N

Oh in that case I flip my comments as i though the other guy was Dave... Sounds like Dave was reasonable and the Douglas guy was just being intentionally dishonest (perhaps even with himself).

@realcaseyrollins

@realcaseyrollins @Murray_N

The power was in Gaza, the stealing of land designated for the palestinians was in the west bank. It also wasnt a one-time thing but a repeated pattern of Israel, to steal Palestinian land and settle it during peace time despite agreed upon borders.

@realcaseyrollins @Murray_N

It was basically done int he 2 years leading up to the Oct 7th attack and was one fo the major motivating factors for the attack.

The other one was that Israel completely disregarded the Palestinian border and were settling Palestinian lands despite the agreement to the contrary and peace. Why would Palestine maintain peace when Israel just comes and takes up land and settles it whenever they feel like it even if they are being peaceful?

@realcaseyrollins

the issue around them leveling an area with civilians in it is certainly a legit concern. But to me the bigger issue and what is more telling is how they intentionally attack, punish, and torture the citizens where there is no military justification. In the 2 years I was there they had a huge region of palestine with power cut off intentionally as punishment. It was one of the huge issues brought up in international court when Israel was to be tried for war crimes and of course Israel refused to even show in court.

Youc an always make excuses as to why they killed too many civilians, and the details are nebulous. But when you have long-standing quality of life attacks directly and intentionally on the people, while the death toll might not be as infuriating, it far more reflects on their terrorist mentality than anything else.

@Murray_N

@realcaseyrollins

They should do exactly what every other nation does. Go in, but take extra risk in how you do it to ensure you keep the civilians reasonably safe as you do. That means you dont level an area with civilians with bombs, you go in with snipers or targeted amunition and make an attempt to reasonably limit civilian death, even if that puts your own military at a slightly higher risk. Because thats what good people do, they risk their lives for the innocent.

@Murray_N

@realcaseyrollins @Murray_N

Wait maybe i confused who dave smith was here... Is Dave Smith the guy who has the british accent and sounds like a wanker relying mostly on appeals to authority? The pro Israel guy? Cause he is who i was talking about.

That other dude that was largely negative about both Israel and Palestine, him I found to be reasonable and agreed with in general however felt his argument was, as often is the case, focusing on the wrong things. Who is doing evil things now is only relevant if we look at the context of the things done to get here.

The most impiortant aspect of my stance is, Israel used the worst imaginable form of terrorism, a form that Palestine has to this day not used (biological warfare). They used it to win, get the upper hand, and trap the palestinians in a horrific state. Only once they used those tactics, and won, and completely suppressed the other side did they even try to pretend to be the good guys (and still fail at even that). It is not the least bit surprising that the underdog would use terrorist tactics that are more mild than the terrorist tactics used against them, now that they are on the loosing side.

If you just ignore the 100 some years of what was done against them and try to play it like just the last year is all that existed you make a very poor and dishonest argument, and its what a lot of people defending palestine keep getting goated into.