PJ @pj@qoto.org

@nielspflaeging

I see it more as a #process of self-#production and maintenance rather than a #state or #characteristics of a system:

>#Poiesis /pɔɪˈiːsɪs/ (from Ancient Greek: ποίησις) is "the ***#activity in which a person brings something into being that did not exist before***."
... etymologically derived from the ancient Greek term ποιεῖν, which means "to make". It is related to the word poetry, which shares the same root.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poiesis

@BetaCodex

Yes, it's always the same story.

Organizations, much like organisms are (autopoieticaly) 😉 built (and maintained) *from the inside out*.

No amount of ***outside*** help, ready-made solutions, or tools will change anything if the clients are not willing to do the hard work to change themselves.

@BetaCodex @nielspflaeging

And don't worry. Everything will be perfect because we'll also do all your #work for you while we are here. Who cares if things fall apart after we are gone because you didn't #learn anything from us.😀

You can tell Im in the middle of reading ***The Big Con*** by *Mariana Mazzucato* & *Rosie Collington*
on
*How the Consulting Industry Weakens Our Businesses, Infantilizes Our Governments, and Warps Our Economies*

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/710959/the-big-con-by-mariana-mazzucato-and-rosie-collington/

@nielspflaeging

Of course you can't do anything with it. It is #autopoiesis. It is doing things onto itself like #growing and #learning. 😉

@unklar

I was hoping we may have learned our lesson with the calculators.

What is the difference between a student trying to pass as their own the work done by an #AI tool or the work of another student? They are cheaters in both cases, and they are also very easily identified as such.

Studens using search engines and new sophisticated language tools to support their thinking and making a point should be applauded.

But if your educational goal is to train a bunch of "parrots" good at spewing "facts" on demand without any critical thinking, of course you will be banning the use of ChatGPT because it is much better in doing that.

@EricLawton

Maybe they forgot (or didn't bother) to put their dentures on.😀

@boris_steipe

I glanced over the sources you listed but won't pretend I understand everything that's in there 😉
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, for example, a bird and an airplane both show the emergent property of *flying* while being two totally different "machines".
I believe where we differ in our views is that for you their flying is identical, or the flying of the airplane might be even superior to that of the bird, while for me they are quite different processes that cannot be compared so easily.
Also, #evolution and #learning are two completely different processes. Evolution depends on large pools of (imperfect) #copies of the same "thing", while learning is more like the #growth of a single individual having the ability to "learn" (modify their internal #state).

@boris_steipe
Reading this from *The Bitter Lesson* by *Rich Sutton*:

> researchers seek to leverage their human knowledge of the domain, but the only thing that matters in the long run is the leveraging of computation. These two need not run counter to each other, but in practice they tend to. ***Time spent on one is time not spent on the other***.

http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.html

For me, the last sentence means that the ***real value*** of #tools like #AI for humans is that they can free us from tedious, repetitive, unimaginative work such as #computation in favor of more elaborate creative thinking.

People have always used previously developed more primitive tools to develop better ones. This was true for all tools and machines we invented so far, and is also true for #AI's ability of "upgrading itself".

@boris_steipe

I don't know. #Language is a fairly new "improvement" in biological evolution, and I'm not sure you can reverse engineer (artificial) #intelligence from it.
You could argue that intelligence evolved ***before*** language. After all, you have quite a few intelligent animals with no language or with a very simple vocabulary.

@boris_steipe

I'm not sure if you can have a #state #phase #transition with just #computation. You can definitely "scale up" some existing capability by ading more computational power, but can you get (evolve to) something radically new?

@unklar
But seriously. It is a proven fact that just enough #constraint is better for #creativity:
>Recent surveys show that managers tend to consider compliance restrictions and a lack of resources as the main obstacles to innovation. This common wisdom suggests eradicating all constraints: by getting rid of rules and boundaries, creativity, and innovative thinking will thrive. Our research, however, challenges this wisdom and suggests that managers can innovate better by embracing constraints.

https://hbr.org/2019/11/why-constraints-are-good-for-innovation

@unklar
😃
https://despair.com/collections/demotivators/products/potential

This was already tried numerous times throughout history. It is beyond me why would someone think ***civilization states*** may work in this day and age. "*Civilised*" or not, a state is as good or bad as the relationships it maintains with its own people and its neighbors.

>#Culture is what every tribe and community developed to affirm its sense of #identity. Some cultures established #states with clear #borders that further nurtured their cultures (and) were led by **“men of prowess”**: chiefs or priests, princes or kings, even emperors.
#Civilization began with the idea that the “*civilized*” had to confront the “*barbaric*.” **Men of vision** set out to *find meaning in life beyond their own borders*. They ranged from prophets and teachers who inspired those with wealth and power to spread their message to everyone.

https://www.noemamag.com/modernizing-ancient-civilizations-for-todays-planetary-challenges

@omartwotone

OK. A couple of remarks (from the bottom up):

1️⃣There are only two domains: the #physical (external) #data domain, which also contains the "virtual" electronic representation, and the (internal) #cognitive domain of interaction between #information and #knowledge.

2️⃣There are no external "sources" of information, knowledge, or understanding. These are all #produced within the "cognitive domain" of the individual learning system (or organization) from external data.

3️⃣Situational awareness, intelligence, insight, foresight, and understanding are all different terms describing a current knowledge #state of the dynamical (learning) system.

The bottom line is that you can only use your existing knowledge to extract information from external data. You afterward combine this new information with your existing knowledge (learn) which may change your internal knowledge state and understanding of the state of affairs in the physical domain.

Simple😀

@omartwotone

Nice. Thanks. A military doctrine document? No wonder it is so convoluted😀.
I'll let you know what I think is wrong with it after I give a closer look. Thanks again.

@omartwotone

Found where? Seems like it was taken from a book or a paper.

I find it pretty confusing just by itself. Three *information domains*, *external information* providing *intelligence sources* while having nothing to do with *internal knowledge* which is listed under *other sources*?

I wonder if Figure 2.1. may provide some better understanding?

@omartwotone

Is there some explanatory text going with this picture?