Pat @Pat@qoto.org

@freemo @pixelherodev@fosstodon.org

Oh wait... I think I have a conspiracy hypothesis...

No, it was just a conspiracy conjecture.

@qutaotao

Hello qutaotao. Welcome to the fediverse!

@freemo @funny

Sounds like me...

@3ammo

Thank you for your comments.

The probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics in not an artifact of measurement, but an intrinsic aspect of the model. As you say, measurement is simply another interaction. The unique characteristic of measurement as distinct from other interactions is that it is ultimately connected, in a quantitative way, to the interactions that form our consciousness, whereas other interactions that are not observed or perceived are not. But that difference does not otherwise effect the character of the interaction with regard to the model.

And yes, it is frustrating that that probabilistic nature of QM -- that more relaxed causality -- shows up when we move from the macro world toward the more fundamental. Sometimes when something frustrates me, I'll just lean into it. That tactic actually helps sometimes. I thought I'd try that with this problem, i.e., lean into the idea that uncertainties arise or increase when moving from the macro world to the more fundamental and think about what would happen if you just assumed that that increasingly randomizing effect would continue as you continued to move toward more fundamental models. Maybe it doesn't become completely random -- completely non-causal -- as I proposed, but just becomes even more probabilistic than our current model.

>Can science, or any organized thought for that matter, be done without a temporal order of events? If causality is macroscopic only, how did we manage to still make sense of the microscopic world if there is no temporal pattern to begin with?

Our thoughts and models and math are all macroscopic and happen within the context of this causal, macroscopic world and yes, "thought" could not happen without time and causality (as far as I am aware of at the moment :). But that doesn't stop us from being able to think about things like randomness and non-causality. I mean, statistics (a part of math, which is perhaps the most certain of constructs) is what we use to think about randomness, among other things. So, although it wouldn't be easy to conceptualize, I don't see why we couldn't model a non-causal extent, perhaps as a more fundamental aspect of QM. I already have ideas as to how causality could emerge from a non-causal extent to allow for the probabilities of quantum mechanics to emerge from that randomness, but I wanted to see if someone else had already explored that before I went any further. It's unlikely that I'm the first one to think about that, but so far I haven't been able to find anything in the literature about it.

>Why does "any treatment of explicit non-locality necessarily implies temporal non-causality"? Space and time are still not perfectly symmetric in relativity.

If by "symmetric" you're referring to an antisymmetric tensor, I don't have the mathematical understanding to even begin to consider or discuss that. Of course spacetime is physically symmetrical, but I don't think that's what you meant. And yes, what I said there was incorrect. Good catch. Explicit nonlocality does NOT necessarily imply temporal non-causality. But a probabilistic nonlocality might imply a probabilistic temporal non-causality, especially if the individual probabilities of a non-local interaction are themselves nonlocal, i.e., if the individual probabilities are spatially non-contiguous. But I don't think we have observed that phenomenon yet.

@aluaces

Thank you.

Yes, although I never heard of the term "non-fungible token", I knew he was talking about block-chains and deduced what NFT was after looking it up. My comment about "not for tourists" was a joke, inferring that people who were unfamiliar with the terrain might want to avoid them.

Also, it was another callback to my rant at:
https://qoto.org/@Pat/106652251397891280

@dhfir

Also referred to as the speed of information, forming a "light cone".

Although Einstein found mass-energy equivalence via special relativity (which implies causality), I don't think mass-energy equivalence itself excludes the possibility of a non-causal extent. Einstein developed special relativity at the macro level, even though it is applied in quantum mechanics, e.g. in quantum field theory (which, I believe also requires causality).

Not sure if folks are not commenting because they think I'm full of shit or because more exposition is required...

Assuming the latter:

What I refer to as 'non-causality' is the temporal component that is complementary to spatial non-locality. The former referring to causality of events in time (cause precedes effect), whereas the latter refers to causality in space (the effect of an interaction is spatially "next to" the cause).

If the concept of spacetime holds up within such a non-causal extent, then any treatment of explicit non-locality necessarily implies temporal non-causality.

Does that make more sense?

@freemo

I think it's divided into 1.6 x 10^48 segments, but that'd be tough to fit on a clock dial.

@freemo

Never heard of NFT so I looked it up. Here's what I got. I'm pretty sure it means "Not for tourists".
----
National Film Theatre, the original name of the BFI Southbank
Neurofibrillary tangle, aggregates of hyperphosphorylated tau protein
nft, a command in the nftables subsystem of the Linux kernel
NFT, a timezone for the Norfolk Island external territory of Australia
NFT Ventures, Inc., a family trust established by U.S. computer businessman Ray Noorda
Non-fungible token, a unit of data on a digital ledger called a blockchain
***Not for Tourists, a series of guides to major cities
Nutrient film technique, a hydroponic technique
(from wikipedia)

@ulema

Hi ulema,

I like to dev birdfeeders and hang them from trees in my backyard.

I also dev hypotheses for quantum gravity and do other things having to do with the very small.

And I do misc LINUX stuff, mostly to support my sysadmin tasks, mostly scripts in like BASH (Born Again Shell) and LINUX CLI (Command Line Interface) utilities; PHP (PHP Hypertext Preprocessor); Perl (I don't know what Perl stands for); JavaScript; and a bunch of really old stuff I never use anymore except for fun/reminiscence; and whatever is required for the embedded system I happen to be working on at the time (usually some kind of striped-down C variant).

I generally don't use script add-ons (what is Symfony?) unless the architecture was specifically designed to be built up that way from scratch, because I like my code to be efficient (a quirk I picked up from way back when that was actually necessary) and I like to understand what the code is doing; plus I can usually write what I need just as fast as I can learn the interface for the add-ons. And I only write for my own needs so I don't have to get involved with the other stuff.

@worldsendless @ulema

Thank you Tory for the disam. (disambiguation)

JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
SQL (Structured Query Language)
Crux (does Crux mean something?)

@ulema @worldsendless

I assume FE means Red Hat Enterprise, but who knows. Maybe the poster will grace us with some disambiguation.

See: https://qoto.org/@Pat/106652251397891280

More detail on the non-causality poll...

I'd expect adherents to quantum mechanics to choose "sometimes".

Since QM appears to introduce uncertainty (probabilistic) in place of causality (deterministic) (i.e., it moves from certainty toward randomness), I don't see why a deeper dive couldn't move entirely to randomness (non-causality).

Non-causality appears to be a generalization of nonlocality (or perhaps complimentary to it).

Because of the results of the Bell test experiments, there appears to be renewed interest in explicit theories of nonlocality (e.g., extentions of de Broglie–Bohm theory) to make QM more palatable.

I think the development of a construct for a non-causal extent with causality emergent at macroscopic levels (or emergent at the quantum/macro interface) could serve the same purpose, but I haven't been able to find anything on that.

*** Does anybody know of anyone who is working on that? ***

Here are some more hashtags to cast the net a bit wider. (feel free to comment even after the poll is complete):

#einstein #bohr #causality #spacetime #belltest #epr #paradox #light
#atom #atoms #electron #proton #quark #neutron #electricity #stem #technology
#cern #matter #energy #higgs #particle #lorentz #simultaneity #lightcone
#physics #QM #relativity #gravity #time #space

@bonifartius

Thanks for the report. Saves me the trip.

#physics #QM #relativity #gravity #time #space

Is causality an emergent phenomenon?

@freemo

I sometimes use the dash. And occasionally use space (next to space, before time), but that's at times when I'm spaced.

@mc
I met Ted in the early 1980s right after he wrote 'Literary Machines'. I got a copy of one the few hand-bound galleys of book he was distributing at a conference.

I wonder if it's worth anything?

Actually, it was one of the canals discovered by Mariner 4.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariner_4

#TruthBeTold #history #ganymede

Seventy-three percent of college sophomores don't know that Galileo was the explorer who discovered the Panama Canal.

----------
#TruthBeTold = A statement that is logically or literally true (or partly true), but seems to imply something that isn't true or is just plain weird. (for rhetoric, logic or propaganda studies... or just for fun)

@freemo

The Hershey Company typically spends over half-a-billion dollars a year on advertising, so there's that.

An ad-supported platform will contort their policies quite a bit to protect that.

I ran into the same thing on the bird-brained site with a parody of Doritos.

https://www.thehersheycompany.com/content/dam/corporate-us/documents/investors/2019-fact-book.pdf