🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@qoto.org

@Murray_N

Oh in that case I flip my comments as i though the other guy was Dave... Sounds like Dave was reasonable and the Douglas guy was just being intentionally dishonest (perhaps even with himself).

@realcaseyrollins

@realcaseyrollins @Murray_N

The power was in Gaza, the stealing of land designated for the palestinians was in the west bank. It also wasnt a one-time thing but a repeated pattern of Israel, to steal Palestinian land and settle it during peace time despite agreed upon borders.

@realcaseyrollins @Murray_N

It was basically done int he 2 years leading up to the Oct 7th attack and was one fo the major motivating factors for the attack.

The other one was that Israel completely disregarded the Palestinian border and were settling Palestinian lands despite the agreement to the contrary and peace. Why would Palestine maintain peace when Israel just comes and takes up land and settles it whenever they feel like it even if they are being peaceful?

@realcaseyrollins

the issue around them leveling an area with civilians in it is certainly a legit concern. But to me the bigger issue and what is more telling is how they intentionally attack, punish, and torture the citizens where there is no military justification. In the 2 years I was there they had a huge region of palestine with power cut off intentionally as punishment. It was one of the huge issues brought up in international court when Israel was to be tried for war crimes and of course Israel refused to even show in court.

Youc an always make excuses as to why they killed too many civilians, and the details are nebulous. But when you have long-standing quality of life attacks directly and intentionally on the people, while the death toll might not be as infuriating, it far more reflects on their terrorist mentality than anything else.

@Murray_N

@realcaseyrollins

They should do exactly what every other nation does. Go in, but take extra risk in how you do it to ensure you keep the civilians reasonably safe as you do. That means you dont level an area with civilians with bombs, you go in with snipers or targeted amunition and make an attempt to reasonably limit civilian death, even if that puts your own military at a slightly higher risk. Because thats what good people do, they risk their lives for the innocent.

@Murray_N

@realcaseyrollins @Murray_N

Wait maybe i confused who dave smith was here... Is Dave Smith the guy who has the british accent and sounds like a wanker relying mostly on appeals to authority? The pro Israel guy? Cause he is who i was talking about.

That other dude that was largely negative about both Israel and Palestine, him I found to be reasonable and agreed with in general however felt his argument was, as often is the case, focusing on the wrong things. Who is doing evil things now is only relevant if we look at the context of the things done to get here.

The most impiortant aspect of my stance is, Israel used the worst imaginable form of terrorism, a form that Palestine has to this day not used (biological warfare). They used it to win, get the upper hand, and trap the palestinians in a horrific state. Only once they used those tactics, and won, and completely suppressed the other side did they even try to pretend to be the good guys (and still fail at even that). It is not the least bit surprising that the underdog would use terrorist tactics that are more mild than the terrorist tactics used against them, now that they are on the loosing side.

If you just ignore the 100 some years of what was done against them and try to play it like just the last year is all that existed you make a very poor and dishonest argument, and its what a lot of people defending palestine keep getting goated into.

@Murray_N

I barely had the time to do the deepdive on that last one. But I agree it was largely a circus.. i mean just some guy saying some shit like "everyone lies about israel" without really a hard look at facts to justify it. The vast nmajority of what was said was just wasted air and I couldnt really even comment on it meaningfully if i wanted to. Now the parts he did say something meaningful, mostly specific jabs at palestine I can address, but they were far and few between for how much hot air was spewed.

@realcaseyrollins

@johnabs

Its hard for me to see how that could work, but if the tool does what you say and does it well somehow that could be a game changer.

@cleverthis

@Murray_N

I'm familiar with much of the early history. But I was there largely to see the modern state of things and hear peoples opinions. One thing i learned is palestinians are quite proud of their long term presence in the area. Most palestinians living in palestine have as a central figure in their home huge family trees showing their ties to the region going back many generations. Meanwhile most Isralis havent been there more than a generation or two and have no clue if their lineage has any roots in the area or not in most cases (other than perhaps biblical references to some people practicing a similar religion to them).

@realcaseyrollins

@Murray_N

I would imagine most people see what they want to see. Im not sure its the IDF intentionally being misleading so much as them just being on their best behavior when they are under the eyes of a foreigner to some extent, and also just the fact that there isnt much to see other than the fact that they just dont let much shit in or out.

You see much more when you see starving uneducated kids in the street with no power because israel had, for months, cut the power to the area as a punishment.

@realcaseyrollins

@Murray_N

I think its pretty idiotic to claim an appeal to authority in and of itself. Everyone is welcome to an opinion. However i agree that someones experiences (such as visiting the area) should be a factor in someone judging the credibility of an opinion. But that is not the same as saying a person shouldnt have an opinion.

That said I moved to Israel and lived there for over 2 years recently in part specifically so i could get to know both sides in the war first hand and have a real on-the-ground opinion. I found that to be a rewarding experience that has certainly effected my view and refined it.

@realcaseyrollins

@realcaseyrollins

So short answer, he does exactly what every single person who picks a side in this debate (or any debate) and digs in tends to do... He uses every true thing he can say to his advantage, and completely denies every true thing that works against his pov as a lie (with little or no evidence to back it).

A good test, did he have anything at **all** critical to say against his own argument? anything? nope?

Now look at our past arguments, I clearly have picked a side out of the two. But do you see me trying to claim my side is perfect no. Look at the person arguing against him, does he admit wrong doing on both sides, or just the side he is against? That will always tell you more about who is at least being intellectually honest in any debate and it clearly isnt Dave here.

So I will largely just reiterate my point ive made many many times before. The situation is, within the lifetime of a single person we have israel carrying out biological (infectious disease) warfare on the Palestinians in the first days of the war, they win that war, using the most vile and inappropriate of terrorism, on a scale that palestine has never came close to attempting themselves. This is accepted fact, even israel doesnt deny it. Everything else has followed from that act.

@Murray_N

@realcaseyrollins

Watch the 15 minute clip.. doubling back to the full one now as I feel that didnt give enough context.

@Murray_N

@realcaseyrollins

Cool, ill let ya know my thoughts soonish.

@Murray_N

@realcaseyrollins

If yiou want my opinion on it you will either need to summarize it for me, or link me to it.

@Murray_N