🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱 @freemo@qoto.org

@Pat

It sure is an argumet when you can virtually garuntee that 99.9% of the population will use it in a way that spreads disease. You cant expect people to use it with the same rigour as a surgeon and to expect it invites disaster

@blueplanetslittlehelper @zleap @trinsec

@bonifartius

The issue in my mind is not if masks work when used with the rigour of a surgeon.. they do. My issue is that the general ublic will not and cant be expected to use that rigour. The way the general public is expected to use masks is likely to produce a very different outcome than the ideal, so much so I strongly suspect it causes more harm than good.

@blueplanetslittlehelper @Pat @zleap @trinsec

@Pat @zleap @trinsec

> You can't touch your nose or mouth while you're wearing a respirator, it's sealed to the face in an airtight seal. You have to take the respirator away from your face to actually tough your nose or mouth.

Exactly, something I see them do constantly without almost any exceptions when I observe people. I almost never see someone who isnt constantly taking their resperator off and on.

> You can tough the outside of a respirator all you want, but the particles still won't penetrate the filter material.

Since touching the outside infects your hands and people are constantly touching their eyes or fidgeting the mask this is still a huge route for infection

> You should never eat or drink in an area where there may be virus in the air.

Except almost no one waits to get to a a clean room to take a sip from their water. So moot point. The problem with your analysis is the huge divide between what a perso should do and what virtually everyone **does** do.

> You shouldn't be spending that much time in an environment with possible virus in the air. You should only make short, essential trips. I've worn an elastomeric respirator for up to four hours at time without issue.

Again what you should do and what people actually do is the issue. In short if people had the rigor of a doctor doing surgery then respirators and masks would be quite effective Im sure. In practice however they make things much worse,

#2 is debatable. It wouldnt need to spread from surface to mask. It would also be able to spread via captured droplets. The mask is filtering the ir, this means a high degree of infected droplets are constantly being captured by the mask.

To #1 Id say the increase is overwhelming. Normally with a mask every sip of your drink you must touch the mask and usually incidentally your face, something you wouldn't do without a mask,.

#2 we covered.

#3 is not entierly true either. even if the lower spread to the environment was significant, but non-zero, it can easily be offset and reversed by a significant increase in your ability to be infected yourself.

@blueplanetslittlehelper

The problem with most mask studies is they arent really designed to test real world effects well. They can show under ideal conditions they block transmission, and they do, but fail to factor in the points i mentioned or to test under real world conditions.

What real world tests we do have tend to rely on correlation and cause post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies and dont really engage in well designed granger causality tests.

@Pat @zleap @trinsec

@nattiegoogie@mstdn.io

The benefits are a bit sketchier and hard to be certain about. But yes there is some data to suggest that.

@Gina

@Pat

Even respirators I feel somewhat confident drastically **increase** the spread of the virus when used by the general public for the same reasons a mask would.

See this reply for reasons why:

https://qoto.org/@freemo/107398940618979960

@zleap @trinsec

@sphinxc0re I dont have any good sources other than wikipedia and a few studies showing its effects (some linked from wikipedia).

to quote:

"Studies have shown that regular consumption of boiled coffee increases serum cholesterol whereas filtered coffee does not."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafestol