HUMAN CHANGE = WORK TOGETHER ? @freeschool@qoto.org

People often say "but what about food" for whatever horror banks / government are doing.

There is little worth easy food for what we get in return - more problems and expectation to work more...

People are not grateful for man-made restrictions to access and financially cooking people alive using food as the medium for a lure / trap / usury.

I consider it cruelty and cause of suffering for people to ride others like that even if it's not obvious by top-level people who putt arbitrary / keep-them-working numbers to things just to maximise people / tax etc... basically things are whatever it means to them (increasingly crazy and meaningless life) and keeps people sending them money and %'s through a system (of getting money)...

Those people pay the minimum for us, take the profit and often go to #war with it too because they don't care ultimately otherwise they would find a way to talk and care and make most people happen (I feel it's the opposite and they are totally not interested).

People more interested in warring on their own people and others- can't be trusted.

Grow your own food, get out of traps etc...

TLDR / quick list to see if anyone interested (ask for more expansion)

TLDR: by order of how
⬇️ First words are important:

➖ Math is used in negative spectrum as Money.
💳 Money is largely the math of creating debt first (negative number amounts) in Banks,
( And 🗽 Government / companies also helps devalue the pool of money using many ways (inflation, increasing pension age, loans, stagnant wages, system, government decisions not to spend etc)
🏦 Banks
Creating loans diluting all other money. Ability to lend x9 more than it has essentially cheating maths loaning what it does have (gambling banks)

I won't write more buy wait to see if TLDR holds any % interest for you (excuse the pun)

====================
extra notes
====================
Almost proportionately, banks and money indirectly lead to negativity / exhaustion with anyone running endseley

Symptons, like a cancer of numbers using people.

Any question ? Nature's energy up in direct exchanged for the debt) when it's mostly man-man-numbers used to keep people working / desperate . etc...

Negative Maths (Money/Debt Creation) = 'Negative Creation'
➡️ Therefore Negative Life

#Money is #negative #charge / Each money was bought (many people)

Updated: Took out version number which wasn't right because we have our version of software...

The rest is the same, with 2 replies pasted at the end since this was a re-draft (it would have left replies orphan if not pasted).

============
List of issues below + moan
- not so serious but good if you like to be on top of letting people know more than less
=============

My own critique (of anything) is that people are CRAP at managing if they are not saying (or listing) the problems in new version or half-step version for users (expert or not) - so they can expect things when changes have been made.
It was said this was a stepping-stone upgrade so this not quite deserving "crap" attribute but I guess I would do more or have someone else at least do it for me as a note to users (before others post about it say find a problem).

So a 'management of expectations' if we you are the manager / mod knowing about problems (to be fair I think it they don't always know and @freemo alone for ages) but still can't make promises you can't / didn't meet again).

So I'm mentioning this expectations thing so users in their own world know *before* using it that

(i.e.) ➡️ "we know you can't do this + this + this yet... but most works"...

so crap = not mentioning / being silent - which I'm not saying is the case here but going for others to note that if managing any users anywhere then say before complaints or someone holding you to tje time quoted... months out or repeated attempts and I'm sure prioritizing other things more than a few days...

Literally also a mod says it's not for them to talk to or tell @freemo and they seem help out once in a blue moon (notice almost no postings from them, or literally none) - So all this = no excuse for me as manager (not plural probably)) - waiting again for repair man to come or tomorrow again loses it's value / cost me to hear it again even if I didn't pay for it. Nobody like when repair guy doesn't show on the regular.

So the above is a general observation rather than attack or something.

===============
So on to the issues:
===============

1/ I get the same "re-dited" notifications - (like 5+ times so far for the same post) always the same posts

2/ Cannot see my own profile natively - clicking my username link = "not found" page as said by @bibliolater in this post (screenshot in post https://qoto.org/@bibliolater/113262204991652012)

3/ error 500 comes up but retrying works so not bad or big (unless it's going wrong in some other way when it does seem to post)

4/ "Local" tab disappeared / no shortcut to see Local Timeline at top

5/ Searching own posts still doesn't work despite "shortly after" being said after this change - this is the longest running saga of all things and probably is just a switch on thing...

4/ yawn

so I'm sure all this will be attempted to be fixed...
"hopefully everything working and a few new features."
one day / after, another phase ... ...towards Version 4.x.x and that has been said as the plan...

=====================
Last update from freemo was 25th Sept here (and reply to this post)
=====================
https://qoto.org/@freemo/113195726122740438 or at least using this hashtag...

===============
THE 2 REPLIES
===============

1 🎓 Doc Freemo 🇳🇱
@freemo
=================
https://qoto.org/@freemo/113267773781500753
(pasted below)
=================

@freeschool @bibliolater

#1 is due to backlog from when we were down, now that we are caught up they should go away.

#2 known issue we are fixing. It is due to a broken link, if you click your name ont he left side above the edit field it will be wrong, but if you click your name anywhere else it will be correct. Simple fix we will roll out soon.

#3 That was due to us having our resources set for the old version,b ut resource usage changed dramatically. As of earlier today we reallocated our workers (smaller machines but many more of them) and this issue appears to have went away, the system is more responsive as a result.

UPDATE: nvm i just saw a 500, its likely our load balancer, let me at that now.

#4 appears to be just a missing link issue o some kind. If you used to have the local timeline up it will still be up. But if it isnt up the physical link appears to just be missing. Easy fix ill have them on that right away.

#5 that is intentional, as I've stated before the upgrade needs to finish and then we will renable it (or else the updates would take weeks instead of a day). Right now things are mostly working, once everything is fixed (these issues seem to be all thats left) and things are stable for about a week then we will renable it.

as for your comments about 4.x not sure what your talking about, there is no 4.x of QOTO, Why would you think our next version would be a major number bump rather than a minor number bump? It sounds like you are confusing us with Mastodon, their versions and our versions arent related its different software.

=================
2nd reply/ adam w.k.
https://qoto.org/@sabbatical/113268061825432938
@sabbatical
(pasted below)
=================

@freemo @freeschool @bibliolater i'm using the phanpy.social web client, so not having the same issues, but i am experiencing long-ish loadtimes, and actions like replies/posts/boost/likes often generate errors and have to be tried more than once before they'll "take".

@bibliolater "Not found" issue:

Can confirm that I also cannot see my own profile or post natively from clicking top left name link- but I'm sure this will be attempted to be fixed... one day / after another phase...

so if #QOTO users click their name above the message box, they get not found...

I'll mention more things in another post (hashtag #QOTO if you want to add to list of issues possibly just while they might be sorting other stuff towards Version 4.x.x)

Logo is super by AlmaLinux
on
@almalinux
---============----
Reasons:
---============----
1/ Captures a whole community vibe, hearts as people (not just for children to draw but grown ups too to visualise even as business-like, more-rigid logo - linking #hearts is cool)

2/ #symmetry elegance like yin and yang

3/ but also people are more directly in the picture so suggests more clearly it's a people thing and #community orientated as #priority (also rare)

4/ #Flower like shape also adds possibility that #growing #people is the #beauty of it all or doing it together with hands in the middle, no matter what colour you are / where you are from.

---===============----
Personally... about my logo
and community needs...
---===============----

➡️ My logo was aiming for the similar few things mentioned but was much more mono-chrome / black and white...
🔵 3 people connecting personally to each other in an inside circle of exchange
⚫ Outside circle = achieving new level of being some kind of "community" (3+ busy people can do a lot of good in short time)

It's hard enough with 3+ communicating but it's so worth it to achieve any level of community... and therefore practice humanity that comes with it. Individuals can't do humanity on their own very well or it's hit and miss with others...

I'm personally having a lot of trouble as 'anon' or as nickname. Seems people really care about that to start with...

Not many see to what you write about or try for... many can't use free talents or extra hands when it's free... can't accept I keep it low profile online.... even though they know online dangers (not from individuals but more the larger fish). It's sad and possibly growing trust is one of the best things (including trusting other more often).

But glad to hear AlmaLinux is heading for the right ways which this review below shows...

---===============----
(just saw this review
I #quote the post below....)
---===============----

" I think #AlmaLinux checks a whole lot of boxes:

* Run as many copies as you wish
* No need to register/authenticate to get binaries, source or patches
* LTS for everybody
* Security track record looking good
* Won't be bought and absorbed by RH
* Friendly, helpful #community
* Close enough to RHEL (and pretty much a standard of its own at this point)
* User-centric "

⬆️ Positive comments by Steven Rosenberg @passthejoe / https://ruby.social/@passthejoe/113267319281324026

@Hejny @L29Ah @cweickhmann @trinsec #MeowViewer works very well for #Mastodon #export #backup #archives :)

This post show potential problem for some people or more help if it doesn't work first time [ don't forget to follow ⭐ @meowViewer ⭐ ]

!BIGSMILE! 😃 #QOTO USERS

=====================
THE REST BELOW IS ONLY IF
YOU GET AN ERROR ETC
=====================

If you get any error about memory or it hangs for any reason try this below as it can be a good test (it might be because of other Mastodon issues with media so as potential work-around try this:)

[TLDR] Open your export and then re-save [zip/tar/gz ok] _without_ "media_attachments" directory.

This will show if it's the media causing the problems in archive and just show you your posts which is at least a big step and most of the way there.

In my case / maybe for QOTO / Mastodon's case overall too it's the mp3 cover art that seems to trigger / stop things (in archive upload or file upload in Mastodon before (as in picture) and probably was what gave 422 errors (see pic below)

So in more detail as test / work around:

1/ Open your archive and extract somewhere (the tar.gz file you get after downloading from your profile setting > backup export )
@meowViewer
2/ Move the
Re-zip (or tar or gz) only the root file (json and basic files) and not "media_attachments" or maybe can include that but not the directories inside this

So in the end you get a 10mb file or so to test really quickly and remove potential problems and GET YOUR POSTS!

Any post with media errors perhaps you can find from offline archive by name or offline elsewhere....

MEOW SUGGESTION
Hey @meowViewer
it would be good if it MeowViewer said visibly which filename it was attempting after the "failed to load attachments" message in red (this could be yellow or something bit brighter too)

All things are subject to interpretations...

👨 And the more you own the
✋ / \ 👉 place, the more widely
/ __ \ you can interpret and delay!
🦶 🦶

So if you own the population of 'civilians' and they are dependent on you - then just interpret things how you like!

#Boss #Rules #Rights #Ethics vs. #Finance
#Money drives #Interpretation

@itnewsbot

#Simplex #Privacy #Chat #app
1 🔗 Download link
and
2 📋 Story (non-ad version below)

🚀 Boost! 🚀
====================

1 🔗 MORE INFO:
@simplex
https://simplex.chat
+ my summary post:https://qoto.org/@freeschool/112696145042887012@simplex@mastodon.social

2 📋 STORY for those aware of privacy for various reasons...

(Non-advert version)

TITLE: Neo-Nazis head to encrypted Simplex @simplex Chat app, bail on Telegram

App swears there's no way for law enforcement to track users' identities.

David Gilbert, wired.com
Oct 5, 2024 7:00 am
Credit: Stadratte

Dozens of neo-Nazis are fleeing Telegram and moving to a relatively unknown secret chat app that has received funding from Twitter founder Jack Dorsey. (Simplex)

In a report from the Institute for Strategic Dialogue published on Friday morning, researchers found that in the wake of the arrest of Telegram founder Pavel Durov and charges against leaders of the so-called Terrorgram Collective, dozens of extremist groups have moved to the app SimpleX Chat in recent weeks over fears that Telegram’s privacy policies expose them to being arrested. The Terrorgram Collective is a neo-Nazi propaganda network that calls for acolytes to target government officials, attack power stations, and murder people of color.

Wired logo
While ISD stopped short of naming SimpleX in its report, the researchers point out that the app promotes itself as “having a different burner email or phone for each contact, and no hassle to manage them.” This is exactly how SimpleX refers to itself on its website.

Last month, one accelerationist group linked to the now defunct neo-Nazi terrorist group Atomwaffen Division, with more than 13,000 subscribers on Telegram, began migrating to SimpleX. Administrators of the channel advised subscribers that “while it's not as smooth as Telegram, it appears to be miles ahead with regard to privacy and security.”

The group now has 1,000 members on SimpleX and, according to ISD, is “part of a wider network built by neo-Nazi accelerationists that consists of nearly 30 channels and group chats,” which includes other well-known accelerationist groups like the Base. Accelerationists seek to speed up the downfall of Western society by triggering a race war in order to rebuild civilization based on their own white Christian values.

The network of groups on SimpleX is also sharing extremist content, including al-Qaeda training manuals, Hamas rocket development guides, neo-Nazi accelerationist handbooks, and militant anarchist literature. And in their newly secure channels on SimpleX, the members of the groups have immediately made direct calls for violence.

“During a 24-hour period on September 25, analysts observed three instances of users calling for the assassination of Vice President Kamala Harris, and one instance calling for the assassination of former President Donald Trump,” the ISD researchers wrote. “Similarly, numerous users called for a race war that would hasten the fall of society, allow them to take the US by force, and institute their desired system of white supremacy.”

SimpleX Chat is an app that was founded by UK-based developer Evgeny Poberezkin. It was initially launched in 2021, and a blog post in August announced that it had passed 100,000 downloads on Google’s Play Store. The same blog post announced that Dorsey had led a $1.3 million investment round, having previously praised the app on other social media platforms. Dorsey did not reply to a request for comment.

Poberezkin told WIRED that he was unaware of the migration of neo-Nazi groups to his platform, but says he believes that despite his network’s focus on privacy, SimpleX can curb the spread of terrorist or abusive material on its app.

“Even in these early days we already did more to prevent distribution of [child sexual abuse material] via the preset servers included in the app than many other platforms did, even though they have much more control,” Poberezkin says. “While we cannot indiscriminately scan all content, and it would have been a human rights violation to do so, if the group entry point is publicly promoted and can be joined, and it uses the servers that we operate, we can remove these entry points and the files from the servers. A very important quality of the SimpleX network is that users cannot be approached unless they want to be. It protects the users from any hostile actors and unwanted promotions.”

In February of this year, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that forcing encrypted messaging apps to provide a backdoor to law enforcement was illegal, a decision that undermined the EU’s plan to force encrypted messaging apps to scan all user content for identifiers of child sexual abuse material.

For years, neo-Nazi groups have flourished on Telegram, many of them under the assumption that Telegram was a fully encrypted platform that provided a greater level of security than it really did. Telegram was used by these groups for building out their networks, sharing propaganda, and planning attacks. However, two of the leaders of the Terrorgram Collective were arrested and charged last month, which was a key factor in triggering the migration to SimpleX, the ISD analysts wrote. The group used Telegram to encourage acts of terrorism in the US and overseas.

“For terrorists and violent extremists looking to avoid detection, SimpleX Chat provides significant advantages over Telegram, largely due to its design and features that prioritize privacy and anonymity,” Marc-André Argentino, a senior research fellow at the Accelerationism Research Consortium, wrote last month in an analysis also discussing the migration of extremists from Telegram to the new platform. “SimpleX offers end-to-end encryption by default for all messages, whereas Telegram only encrypts conversations in its ‘secret chats.’”

Poberezkin says that SimpleX is “100 percent private by design” and that even if he wanted to, he couldn’t access information about user IP addresses. Another key privacy aspect of the app is that, unlike most other encrypted chat apps, SimpleX does not require users to enter a phone number or email to register for an account—removing one of the key ways that law enforcement can track down users on other platforms.

“SimpleX, at its core, is designed to be truly distributed with no central server. This allows for enormous scalability at low cost, and also makes it virtually impossible to snoop on the network graph,” Poberezkin wrote in a company blog post published in 2022.

SimpleX’s policies expressly prohibit “sending illegal communications” and outline how SimpleX will remove such content if it is discovered. Much of the content that these terrorist groups have shared on Telegram—and are already resharing on SimpleX—has been deemed illegal in the UK, Canada, and Europe.

Argentino wrote in his analysis that discussion about moving from Telegram to platforms with better security measures began in June, with discussion of SimpleX as an option taking place in July among a number of extremist groups. Though it wasn’t until September, and the Terrorgram arrests, that the decision was made to migrate to SimpleX, the groups are already establishing themselves on the new platform.

“The groups that have migrated are already populating the platform with legacy material such as Terrorgram manuals and are actively recruiting propagandists, hackers, and graphic designers, among other desired personnel,” the ISD researchers wrote.

However, there are some downsides to the additional security provided by SimpleX, such as the fact that it is not as easy for these groups to network and therefore grow, and disseminating propaganda faces similar restrictions.

“While there is newfound enthusiasm over the migration, it remains unclear if the platform will become a central organizing hub,” ISD researchers wrote.

And Poberezkin believes that the current limitations of his technology will mean these groups will eventually abandon SimpleX.

“SimpleX is a communication network rather than a service or a platform where users can host their own servers, like in OpenWeb, so we were not aware that extremists have been using it,” says Poberezkin. “We never designed groups to be usable for more than 50 users and we’ve been really surprised to see them growing to the current sizes despite limited usability and performance. We do not think it is technically possible to create a social network of a meaningful size in the SimpleX network.”

This story originally appeared on wired.com.

@danieldurrans I think what you want exists as these type of things:

#webring / #smallweb sites that group regularly

#RSS feeder type thing
e.g. petrolette.space

(hashtags might lead to something)

AND I actually saw this as a site done by someone or similar idea for one's own personal site, like a TV screen frame that simply auto-played random videos from person's storage including other people's stuff sometimes... a mix of things that could be chosen - I'd love to have that...

❤️ I'd love to have a way to dump my chosen/curated directory of media and have that auto play randomly while also I'm able to change the directory contents anytime so it's like a TV for my fans

+ they could click "next" anytime to skip and keep discovering more things they like...

Powerful discovery and more personal is so cool (let me know if you have a clue what I mean!)

It's weird that 1 site was "it" and so good that I don't even remember the name of site ...

or did I keep the bookmark or name somewhere... I go off to look !...

So after looking at #ceefax / #teletext so this is a nice transition and merges what I wanted to do before thanks for the post!

P.S
There was even the TV snow crunch in between media changes with audio like someone was changing the channels on old TV... genius.

Know what I mean / see a site like that before?

Everything can be a type of exchange...

Many sorts of exchange...

But give freely / lovingly those exchanges can come around again as a better indirect exchange and even grow itself while you do other things and 'it' can provide for others too...

#nature and #people #exchange
[by #giving #time #listening #helping increasing #biodiversity things #grow ]

#whatgoesaroundcomesaround

The multiplicity and relativity of viewpoints means all the arguments hold some sort of validity from genuine participants and gets more towards underlying or common #Truth.

Holding truth is very important for people and personal truth as value itself. Not to ignore genuine individual people or feel that you are being ignored is a big part of which Anekantavada already expects to have "many sides" to any given perspective.

For those not genuine I think they are often people who are not finding a place of acceptance and rebel or have no way of expression and have to go for lesser things or more forceful / direct ways simply because they can't do that in existing world (for example they are shut off by others or systematically) so feelings are also a reflection of the way it is now. If expression has no place or very little is actually respected (none is actually heard or example just goes to twisted mainstream social media) then people lashes out or isn't training better which safe spaces online or in person you will agree is so much better conversing and exchanging views about rather than taking offense or mainstream reaction-culture.

The mass of opinion usually overwhelms people or system (of course most systems actually are deliberately installed as they "don't want to know" from the very beginning and use computers etc to enforce that) but taken as relativity by individuals as their own planetary style system themselves, Anekantavada perspective makes it a lot less cut-throat in expectations from opinions and personally more accepting / softer to accept. )

"Because the Jain position was able to overcome the apparent inconsistencies between the other views (or religions)... it came closer to fully grasping the one underlying truth, satya."

( This underlying or let's say META from personal experiences or opinions is often really what we want to "get" to AND without discounting genuine views - whatever our opinion - because we each have of those and are improving them)

THAT MEANS OUR OPINIONS CAN CHANGE ALSO!

#Anekantavada also says in short, for everything: "in some ways it is and in some ways it is not, sometimes both at the same time" which is also factual in terms of object or people's attributes and opinions being true in this sense but untrue if looking as different category or comparison.

So more often it is not 1 or 0 or universally all true or false but always a mix of who is looking at what and how... because often "it is that" and then "it isn't that" (and it can be changing or alternating like a mood) so in some way it's so much better to be accepting of that from the beginning... because especially as people, we change and so do things around us. Having such rigidity is actually the problem that makes us break rules or expectations so easily.

As extreme example you can see how #fascism / #binary / #tech doesn't work or is insensitive to people's diversity or opinions because it cuts it out / forces right boxes, confines to narrow pipes of expression etc...

I'd add that this is multi-sided-ness is totally natural, not just from my perspective and yours (individuality as onlookers) but also from the nature perspective of our world where each thing can serve another purpose for many reasons or the appreciation can seen in a different light depending on who / what creature is shining light on it or sharing it- sometimes quite momentary, ethereal and holding context by 2 or more at the time where alone it might not seem to exist...

This way could be the most beautiful and consistent way to appreciate the #beauty and awe (or awesomeness) of the world together and make that #life itself.

Mostly my writing - few paragraphs from this source:

Harvard Pluralism Project:
https://pluralism.org/anekantavada-the-relativity-of-views

#DeusEx comments I chose...
#Cyberpunk game #RPG #genre

Louis_Cypher
Joined Jan 1, 2016
Messages 1,879

Sep 5, 2023
#1

It managed to capture the true spirit of our time, the erosion of rights like privacy or freedom of movement, the erosion of ancient national traditions, of spiritual convictions that grant dignity to human life, or inherited ethnic roots, by globalist cabals, in favour of rootless consumers, and a homogenous global migrant labour force, in a way very little else has. A French woman lamenting the loss of national sovereignty, tastes, and identity, to globalist-driven internationalism. Political change that was never sought, elected, or given democratic mandate, driven by faceless cabals. American nationals rebelling because the principles of the American Revolution have been sold out to international finance. If a certain type of fiction, is meant to take a serious look at society, it looks downright prophetic compared to things that pose as serious observational takes today. To be fair, cyberpunk of all kinds predicts a dystopia, but Deux Ex presented it's case in a way that has aged like wine. At the time, I just thought it was a cyberpunk trope to imagine the worst corporation-ruled excess, in which everything was commodified, and that Deus Ex was one permutation of this future. Today, we have seen the entire planet locked down, a vaccine administered without years of trials that usually accompany a new medicine, campaigns directed against the heritage of nations, school-imparted historical illiteracy; so Deus Ex's depictions of disaster policy, or how information is controlled, looks very apt.

UwGEEMH.png

Most criticism of globalism, around then, used to be leftist, at least outside America; more anti-capitalist agenda driven, seeing class as the only dimension of life, rather than being just generally pro-living things, pro-truth, anti-exploitation, they were vaguely socialist or anarchist. This was before most European and American leftists, usually middle-class, were revealed to care more about rootless internationalism, access to exotic food, and open border migration than their own people's suffering or welfare. The majority of socialists were revealed as the ally of globalism, their media using tools of 'social justice' to further erode actual justice. Primarily leftist critiques tended to suppress the ethnic-denying and destroying component to globalism. National tribes being one of the principle barriers to internationalism and thus one of the foremost targets of globalist propaganda. Suddenly nations that had been homogenous for 20,000 years, with organic customs, were "always migrants", etc. Deus Ex was more balanced, showing that the nation state has been a potent barrier to international financial agendas, often the primary means a people had of resisting global empire. Showing favourable attempts at resistance rooted in American, French or Chinese national tradition.

DvzAyVE.png

Even Human Revolution is suprisingly true to the spirit of the first game. I think it's the second solid entry. Taking a look at science magazines and predicting where transhumanism would be in a decade or two through short 2-page ebooks. Some of it's in-game takes now look remarkably based for a 2011 cross-platform game on Xbox 360, PS3 and PC; criticism of the EU (something that is a totally contentious in some circles now), United Nations and cartels like the Bilderburg Group. Media that focused on something other than predictable establishment approved messages, was given more of a pass in those days. Whether or not they just threw whatever interesting 'conspiracy' they had into it, or had a more concerted world view, it worked out well.

Cat Headed Eagle
Joined Jan 21, 2023
Messages 3,593

Sep 5, 2023
#2

Deus Ex is relatively formulaic in its presentation, it's basically the core cyberpunk values as developed in the 80s but adorned by late 90s americana. Much of it is there in William Gibson's works. Cyberpunk is basically an answer to reaganomics and the cocaine induced enthusiasm of 80s yuppies. Deus Ex didn't create anything, but it is the best example of cyberpunk in gaming, because it is very matter-of-fact, and every aspect of cyberpunk and its aesthetic and themes are taken at face value.

buffalo bill
Joined Dec 8, 2016
Messages 1,039

Sep 5, 2023
#3

as fiction, neuromancer > > > deus ex

AlwaysBrotoMen
Joined Aug 30, 2023
Messages 259

Sep 5, 2023
#4

System shock, Blade Runner, and Snatcher are also good examples of cyberpunk.

Louis_Cypher
Joined Jan 1, 2016
Messages 1,879

Sep 5, 2023

#5

Blade Runner is aesthetic, but relatively 'apolitical'.

My favorites would be Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner, The Matrix, Syndicate Wars, and Deus Ex.

Madclown
Joined Sep 4, 2023
Messages 1

Sep 5, 2023
#6

I feel as the term "Cyberpunk" has been perverted a good bit over the years, but yes, Deus Ex, and to an extent the prequels are contenders, at least with regards to computer games.

NecroLord
Joined Sep 6, 2022
Messages 13,140

Sep 7, 2023
#7

If I remember correctly Mike Pondsmith played Deus Ex and said it is not Cyberpunk (but he did like it).
It certainly lacks some of the style and flash associated with Cyberpunk, but it is a Dystopian setting.
With that being said, Deus Ex is one of my favorite games. It has left a strong legacy and its influence can be felt up to this day.

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 7, 2023
#8

Deus Ex is not cyberpunk since Denton is working for the government. Which renders the entire game CyberCorpo or CyberGov if you want to nitpick. To be punk one must be rebelling against the gov or the corps and stealing their shit so you can survive another day. In other words, you have to be a runner or a cowboy that operates outside the law.

NecroLord
JamesDixon said:
since Denton is working for the government

At least for the first part of the game.

Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body.

— Lawrence Person

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 7, 2023
#11

I missed this. I don't see how Reaganomics played a role in it since Cyberpunk originated with New Wave Sci-Fi of the 1960s and 1970s. Philip K. Dick published Do androids dream of electric sheep? in 1968. From 1962 till 1968, LBJ was in office. Nixon didn't get into office until 1969.

Tyranicon
Joined Oct 7, 2019
Messages 7,453

Sep 8, 2023
#12

JamesDixon said:
marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic future

....Philip K. Dick published Do androids dream of electric sheep? in 1968. From 1962 till 1968, LBJ was in office. Nixon didn't get into office until 1969.

good book but it's not cyberpunk

way closer to cyberpunk is 'the shockwave rider' by brunner from 1975, which has a cool pre-internet vision of the internet and phone phreaking type hacking. but that's really also proto-cyberpunk

if you don't think gibson defines the genre, you're being dense

PorkyThePaladin
Joined Dec 17, 2013
Messages 5,376

Sep 8, 2023
#15

Louis_Cypher said:
...

Lol, funny post.

"Suddenly nations that had been homogenous for 20,000 years"

Name one nation that has been homogenous for 20,000 years. :)

There is nothing wrong per se with wanting to globalize the world. It's the most logical position for anyone who has learned about all the pointless wars of history, and sees (somewhat accurately) the human race as a bunch of violent monkeys on some speck of dust floating in space. Not to mention that this is a likely prerequisite for starting to colonize space.

The issues with it are:

1. It's one thing to have globalization as a gradual goal to aspire to, but it's another to shove it through at insane speed before various groups are ready for it. That's how you get let's say Euro countries flooded with immigrants from various backward nations, who start imposing aspects of their backward cultures on the locals which are not welcome.

2. The way the world is constructed, good things often lead to bad things. So while globalization is a good thing in many ways, it also makes us susceptible to the downsides of human nature much more that a more decentralized model. If you have a bunch of different nations, and one of them gets taken over by a horrible government, all the others are still ok and can counter it, but with a global government, if it turns bad (as every government in history at some point does), it's much more difficult to get rid of it.

General Disarray
Joined Feb 7, 2019
Messages 204

Sep 8, 2023
#16

I have actually been trying to familiarize my self a bit more with cyberpunk and similar subgenres recently. Like JamesDixon if you take a hardline stance the theme and setting is cyberpunk, but the character is not. Instead it is tech noir or cyber noir. Usually works like this like Ghost In The Shell gets classified as post cyberpunk, which to what I gathered is simply cyberpunk but has loosed the requirements of having a punk protagonist and also is accepting that technology could benefit humanity. Post cyberpunk being developed in the nineties where normal people started to interact with the modern internet and use computers in their daily life and thus making a lot of the 80s cyberpunk look hopelessly dated, archaic and a fantasy.

Maxie
Joined Nov 13, 2021
Messages 7,964

Sep 8, 2023
#17

snow crash the book is better because it's playful and schlocky, meanwhile deus ex is a soulless 'punk' product

Hobo Elf
Joined Feb 17, 2009
Messages 14,131

Sep 8, 2023
#18

Deus Ex the first game may very well be one of the best works of fiction ever made regardless of genre. Its sequels.. not so much.

Kev Inkline
Joined Nov 17, 2015
Messages 5,378

A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.

Sep 8, 2023
#20

Did you guys know that Pondsmith says he was more influenced by Hardwired by Walter Jon Williams than by Neuromancer? I think the former is also up there with the best of the genre. I wouldn't let Pondsmith's opinion what makes a piece of media cyberpunk be of any guidance, anyways.

JamesDixon JCD is marginalized and working alone like 80% of the game, I wouldn't let his origins dissuade anyone from classifying DX as cyberpunk.

DX1 is about the best of the genre in computer gaming, but as people have pointed out, storywise alone it's nothing groundbreaking.

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 8, 2023
#21

buffalo bill said:
good book but it's not cyberpunk

if you don't think gibson defines the genre, you're being dense

DADOES is cyberpunk whether you like it or not.

See folks this is your brain on drugs. Nowhere in my reply that he quoted did I say anything about William Gibson's work. What did Gibson do that added to the cyberpunk genre? He added netrunning. That's it. Gibson is influential, but he's not the father of cyberpunk.

Kev Inkline said:
@JamesDixon JCD is marginalized and working alone like 80% of the game, I wouldn't let his origins dissuade anyone from classifying DX as cyberpunk.

I'll side with Mike Pondsmith on this one. He is the father of the Cyberpunk RPG and he says it's good sci-fi, but it's not cyberpunk.

Last edited: Sep 8, 2023

Falksi
Joined Feb 14, 2017
Messages 10,912

Sep 8, 2023
#24

Fucking Masterpiece of whatever it is

forum source:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/is-the-deus-ex-series-overall-the-best-work-of-cyberpunk-fiction-ever-made.148195/

#Cyberpunk game #genre
#DeusEx comments...

Louis_Cypher
Joined Jan 1, 2016
Messages 1,879

Sep 5, 2023
#1

It managed to capture the true spirit of our time, the erosion of rights like privacy or freedom of movement, the erosion of ancient national traditions, of spiritual convictions that grant dignity to human life, or inherited ethnic roots, by globalist cabals, in favour of rootless consumers, and a homogenous global migrant labour force, in a way very little else has. A French woman lamenting the loss of national sovereignty, tastes, and identity, to globalist-driven internationalism. Political change that was never sought, elected, or given democratic mandate, driven by faceless cabals. American nationals rebelling because the principles of the American Revolution have been sold out to international finance. If a certain type of fiction, is meant to take a serious look at society, it looks downright prophetic compared to things that pose as serious observational takes today. To be fair, cyberpunk of all kinds predicts a dystopia, but Deux Ex presented it's case in a way that has aged like wine. At the time, I just thought it was a cyberpunk trope to imagine the worst corporation-ruled excess, in which everything was commodified, and that Deus Ex was one permutation of this future. Today, we have seen the entire planet locked down, a vaccine administered without years of trials that usually accompany a new medicine, campaigns directed against the heritage of nations, school-imparted historical illiteracy; so Deus Ex's depictions of disaster policy, or how information is controlled, looks very apt.

UwGEEMH.png

Most criticism of globalism, around then, used to be leftist, at least outside America; more anti-capitalist agenda driven, seeing class as the only dimension of life, rather than being just generally pro-living things, pro-truth, anti-exploitation, they were vaguely socialist or anarchist. This was before most European and American leftists, usually middle-class, were revealed to care more about rootless internationalism, access to exotic food, and open border migration than their own people's suffering or welfare. The majority of socialists were revealed as the ally of globalism, their media using tools of 'social justice' to further erode actual justice. Primarily leftist critiques tended to suppress the ethnic-denying and destroying component to globalism. National tribes being one of the principle barriers to internationalism and thus one of the foremost targets of globalist propaganda. Suddenly nations that had been homogenous for 20,000 years, with organic customs, were "always migrants", etc. Deus Ex was more balanced, showing that the nation state has been a potent barrier to international financial agendas, often the primary means a people had of resisting global empire. Showing favourable attempts at resistance rooted in American, French or Chinese national tradition.

DvzAyVE.png

Even Human Revolution is suprisingly true to the spirit of the first game. I think it's the second solid entry. Taking a look at science magazines and predicting where transhumanism would be in a decade or two through short 2-page ebooks. Some of it's in-game takes now look remarkably based for a 2011 cross-platform game on Xbox 360, PS3 and PC; criticism of the EU (something that is a totally contentious in some circles now), United Nations and cartels like the Bilderburg Group. Media that focused on something other than predictable establishment approved messages, was given more of a pass in those days. Whether or not they just threw whatever interesting 'conspiracy' they had into it, or had a more concerted world view, it worked out well.

Cat Headed Eagle
Joined Jan 21, 2023
Messages 3,593

Sep 5, 2023
#2

Deus Ex is relatively formulaic in its presentation, it's basically the core cyberpunk values as developed in the 80s but adorned by late 90s americana. Much of it is there in William Gibson's works. Cyberpunk is basically an answer to reaganomics and the cocaine induced enthusiasm of 80s yuppies. Deus Ex didn't create anything, but it is the best example of cyberpunk in gaming, because it is very matter-of-fact, and every aspect of cyberpunk and its aesthetic and themes are taken at face value.

buffalo bill
Joined Dec 8, 2016
Messages 1,039

Sep 5, 2023
#3

as fiction, neuromancer > > > deus ex

AlwaysBrotoMen
Joined Aug 30, 2023
Messages 259

Sep 5, 2023
#4

System shock, Blade Runner, and Snatcher are also good examples of cyberpunk.

Louis_Cypher
Joined Jan 1, 2016
Messages 1,879

Sep 5, 2023

#5

Blade Runner is aesthetic, but relatively 'apolitical'.

My favorites would be Ghost in the Shell, Blade Runner, The Matrix, Syndicate Wars, and Deus Ex.

Madclown
Joined Sep 4, 2023
Messages 1

Sep 5, 2023
#6

I feel as the term "Cyberpunk" has been perverted a good bit over the years, but yes, Deus Ex, and to an extent the prequels are contenders, at least with regards to computer games.

NecroLord
Joined Sep 6, 2022
Messages 13,140

Sep 7, 2023
#7

If I remember correctly Mike Pondsmith played Deus Ex and said it is not Cyberpunk (but he did like it).
It certainly lacks some of the style and flash associated with Cyberpunk, but it is a Dystopian setting.
With that being said, Deus Ex is one of my favorite games. It has left a strong legacy and its influence can be felt up to this day.

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 7, 2023
#8

Deus Ex is not cyberpunk since Denton is working for the government. Which renders the entire game CyberCorpo or CyberGov if you want to nitpick. To be punk one must be rebelling against the gov or the corps and stealing their shit so you can survive another day. In other words, you have to be a runner or a cowboy that operates outside the law.

NecroLord
JamesDixon said:
since Denton is working for the government

At least for the first part of the game.

Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body.

— Lawrence Person

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 7, 2023
#11

I missed this. I don't see how Reaganomics played a role in it since Cyberpunk originated with New Wave Sci-Fi of the 1960s and 1970s. Philip K. Dick published Do androids dream of electric sheep? in 1968. From 1962 till 1968, LBJ was in office. Nixon didn't get into office until 1969.

Tyranicon
Joined Oct 7, 2019
Messages 7,453

Sep 8, 2023
#12

JamesDixon said:
marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic future

....Philip K. Dick published Do androids dream of electric sheep? in 1968. From 1962 till 1968, LBJ was in office. Nixon didn't get into office until 1969.

good book but it's not cyberpunk

way closer to cyberpunk is 'the shockwave rider' by brunner from 1975, which has a cool pre-internet vision of the internet and phone phreaking type hacking. but that's really also proto-cyberpunk

if you don't think gibson defines the genre, you're being dense

PorkyThePaladin
Joined Dec 17, 2013
Messages 5,376

Sep 8, 2023
#15

Louis_Cypher said:
...

Lol, funny post.

"Suddenly nations that had been homogenous for 20,000 years"

Name one nation that has been homogenous for 20,000 years. :)

There is nothing wrong per se with wanting to globalize the world. It's the most logical position for anyone who has learned about all the pointless wars of history, and sees (somewhat accurately) the human race as a bunch of violent monkeys on some speck of dust floating in space. Not to mention that this is a likely prerequisite for starting to colonize space.

The issues with it are:

1. It's one thing to have globalization as a gradual goal to aspire to, but it's another to shove it through at insane speed before various groups are ready for it. That's how you get let's say Euro countries flooded with immigrants from various backward nations, who start imposing aspects of their backward cultures on the locals which are not welcome.

2. The way the world is constructed, good things often lead to bad things. So while globalization is a good thing in many ways, it also makes us susceptible to the downsides of human nature much more that a more decentralized model. If you have a bunch of different nations, and one of them gets taken over by a horrible government, all the others are still ok and can counter it, but with a global government, if it turns bad (as every government in history at some point does), it's much more difficult to get rid of it.

General Disarray
Joined Feb 7, 2019
Messages 204

Sep 8, 2023
#16

I have actually been trying to familiarize my self a bit more with cyberpunk and similar subgenres recently. Like JamesDixon if you take a hardline stance the theme and setting is cyberpunk, but the character is not. Instead it is tech noir or cyber noir. Usually works like this like Ghost In The Shell gets classified as post cyberpunk, which to what I gathered is simply cyberpunk but has loosed the requirements of having a punk protagonist and also is accepting that technology could benefit humanity. Post cyberpunk being developed in the nineties where normal people started to interact with the modern internet and use computers in their daily life and thus making a lot of the 80s cyberpunk look hopelessly dated, archaic and a fantasy.

Maxie
Joined Nov 13, 2021
Messages 7,964

Sep 8, 2023
#17

snow crash the book is better because it's playful and schlocky, meanwhile deus ex is a soulless 'punk' product

Hobo Elf
Joined Feb 17, 2009
Messages 14,131

Sep 8, 2023
#18

Deus Ex the first game may very well be one of the best works of fiction ever made regardless of genre. Its sequels.. not so much.

Kev Inkline
Joined Nov 17, 2015
Messages 5,378

A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.

Sep 8, 2023
#20

Did you guys know that Pondsmith says he was more influenced by Hardwired by Walter Jon Williams than by Neuromancer? I think the former is also up there with the best of the genre. I wouldn't let Pondsmith's opinion what makes a piece of media cyberpunk be of any guidance, anyways.

JamesDixon JCD is marginalized and working alone like 80% of the game, I wouldn't let his origins dissuade anyone from classifying DX as cyberpunk.

DX1 is about the best of the genre in computer gaming, but as people have pointed out, storywise alone it's nothing groundbreaking.

JamesDixon
Joined Jul 29, 2015
Messages 11,318

Sep 8, 2023
#21

buffalo bill said:
good book but it's not cyberpunk

if you don't think gibson defines the genre, you're being dense

DADOES is cyberpunk whether you like it or not.

See folks this is your brain on drugs. Nowhere in my reply that he quoted did I say anything about William Gibson's work. What did Gibson do that added to the cyberpunk genre? He added netrunning. That's it. Gibson is influential, but he's not the father of cyberpunk.

Kev Inkline said:
@JamesDixon JCD is marginalized and working alone like 80% of the game, I wouldn't let his origins dissuade anyone from classifying DX as cyberpunk.

I'll side with Mike Pondsmith on this one. He is the father of the Cyberpunk RPG and he says it's good sci-fi, but it's not cyberpunk.

Last edited: Sep 8, 2023

Falksi
Joined Feb 14, 2017
Messages 10,912

Sep 8, 2023
#24

Fucking Masterpiece of whatever it is

forum source:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/is-the-deus-ex-series-overall-the-best-work-of-cyberpunk-fiction-ever-made.148195/

"Our Choice of Futures"

Imagine and create a new future!...

Nice picture... I didn't play the game as I'm using my time playing the #game of #life instead - but I don't mind using the mottos and meanings for real life as all of it can be used to imagine!

#Police replies (your #rights if needed)

the #legal #law + some comments after this list...

➡️ "NO COMMENT SIR... / MADAM"
➡️ NO PERSONAL DETAILS NEEDED
➡️ "CAN I SEE THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT OFFICER?"
➡️ "UNDER WHAT POWER?" (engaging)
➡️ NO DUTY SOLICITOR
➡️ NOT ACCEPTING THE CAUTION?

Also at the end about wasting police time (I.E. COSTING THEM MONEY AND MAN-POWER)
and capitalism hates that...

Because they find nothing much and that's usually bad or better for your side to carry on doing things elsewhere!

#legal #law + my lame advice under each point

====================
LONGER LIST + REASONS
====================

➡️ "NO COMMENT SIR... / MADAM"

You do not need to answer police questions, so don't.

To be polite if you can't just carry on try say "no comment" and move away.

➡️ NO PERSONAL DETAILS NEEDED

Unless you accept you did something and even threats of evidence aren't enough.

You do not have to give personal details under ANY stop and search power, so don't.

➡️ "DO YOU HAVE THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT?... CAN I SEE THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT OFFICER?"

(engaging / calling their bluff)

Police saying "I'll do xyz" is not always the same as doing it - so asking for evidence is good for killing their time and seeing what they have.

⏱️ Taking you the police station takes them a lot of police time ⌚ so don't think it's always what they want even if they pretend to!

I have said "ok let's go" many times after seeing how well time wasting has worked and after a while they leave me alone realising this person IS A *REAL* WASTE OF TIME!! LOL after I pretend to be a potential fish (while I know others are do good work elsewhere)

Don't say it straight away but see what they have and if it works for occupying time go for it! It's a winner!

Taking police people time = loss of man-power on the ground (2+people + vehicle) which can be good for your teams to get rid of them in area

+ they have to do admin after so talking is usually ALL bullshit and just to get you to react and they don't really want to leave the action lol !!

They probably rarely get the chance - so them going back to HQ to realise you did nothing is a crap result and real time waster!

Baiting arrest to reduce their numbers can be good for those that don't mind arrest as a sure way (arrest only means temporarily taken - IT DOES MEAN you're guilty !!! )

So if you said very little from start then chances are your out after half a day and achieve the task of distraction / reducing their on-the-ground numbers).

Don't do anything too wild to get everyone in trouble, should be mostly an alone thing and "oh no why are you taking me?,,, ok let's go" almost :)

Otherwise "no comment" and carry on if you can in silence.

➡️ "UNDER WHAT POWER?"

Ask "under what power do you state your actions?". They work for the community remember so see what they intend.

Asking question is if you really want to challenge police to act lawfully BUT THIS INVITES THEM TO CREATE BULLSHIT REASONS TOO so CONTINUE DON'T ASK UNTIL THEY GO FOR YOU PROPERLY or you want them to be distracted.

Like #ACAB suggests remember not to try convince them as it is literally time killing or anyway they chose that job / use it to put food on table so even good one's already know or can't admit it in front of their peers / workmates.

➡️ NO DUTY SOLICITOR: use a recommended solicitor with protest experience / protest solicitor if in real trouble or wanting to kill time.

Keep some cards as backup or even pretend to use them / distribute them if you want to pretend you're a big fish. Maybe this is bad if they detain you but at least you can use it to call them (it's not that bad to show you know some law people) and waste time or not - Having solicitor with experience over the phone might be better than working with police-given solicitor in some sense. Do ask the solicitor many questions about their capacity / how they work in that police station and then choose another solicitor!

➡️ NOT ACCEPTING THE CAUTION?
A caution is a legal admission of a bit of guilt usually WHEN THEY HAVE NOTHING and pretend to wave the finger a bit!

Often when they have nothing they make you sign it and leave with a caution... you might want to contest that after reading what it says and see if it's anything bad and then waste time debating it! (i.e don't leave if you don't agree hehe - it really pisses them off as they are done with you BUT YOU ARE NOT DONE WITH THEM!!! ⌚⌚⌚$$$'S )

===========
SUMMARY
===========

⬆️ A lot of these points above INCLUDE willingly time wasting too and accepting they have usually nothing / calling their bluff to occupy their time ! ⬆️

✔️ ⭐ I.E. COSTING THEM MONEY AND MAN-POWER)
Capitalism hates that...

REALLY HATES BECAUSE IT'S AT IT'S OWN COST! ⌚⌚⌚$$$

You can say you're really tired and need to sleep - also kills time and you probably need the sleep.

That's why I've added things here...

✔️ It's effective and low-level
✔️ Low risk compared to effective ratio of distraction to those that cause us trouble... i.e. less police cars on the road / more occupied detaining willing people etc... ❌ 🚗 ❌ 👍